I want to compliment Dave Davies for a well intended question in the thread about Minor League Baseball Umpires. It was deleted prior to my seeing what caused it to disappear. I liked the comment so much that I will revisit it.

Dave asked where the next generation of MLB umpires will herald if MiLB abandons the umpire training program. It was thought provoking and well intended. I responded that Football and Basketball train their officials without a Minor League system. I realize that the Arena League, CFL, European football and various basketball pro leagues serve as training beyond collegiate ball. However, there is no true minor league proving ground in place. In fact, we know that NFL referee have full time jobs other than their Sunday duties.

Now I'm not presuming that AAA ball teams deserve anything less than what they currently have, but there are umpires out there that can do the job. Our collegiate ranks have some terrific talent and many could transition well. Don't get me wrong, not everyone that works college baseball could handle the rigors of MiLB action. Besides the rule differences, having nine stars instead of one or two makes every play interesting.

If the MiLB ownership decides to abandon the current system where would the next MLB umpires come from? Are you ready to work Class A baseball? Does your organization plan to do anything to assist some of your best umpires in contacting those teams?

WWTB,
Not counting the ex MiLB umpires who now work NCAA baseball, I think there is a SMALL percentage of college umpires who could actually make the transition. The reason, the PRO game is a different animal compared to the college game - both in skill level and approach (mentality).

No argument there, I've worked both and see what evils lurk on both fields. How do the NBA and NFL refs groom there proteges? Do the best jump from collegiate to professional ranks?

Sal makes some great points.

In my experience (30 years w/D1-3, JUUCO, HS & A/AAA fill-in), perhaps 20% of the D1 umpires could handle Long / Advanced A or AA.

That being said, most competent college or experienced HS guys could handle Rookie / Short A pretty well. Would take some adjustment to the game, but nothing experience & training can't handle.

I didn't know you were in the game before??? I would not call working independent ball or even fill-in affiliated ball as having "worked" MiLB before.

I work both the Northern and Frontier leagues and the talent in those two leagues is probably low A level at best (so I know I don't even have a grasp of what high A, AA or AAA would be like). This according to a friend of mine who was is the game for four years and now works the NL and FL with me.

When were you a MiLB umpire and what leagues did you work?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by socalblue1

Quote:

In my experience (30 years w/D1-3, JUUCO, HS & A/AAA fill-in), perhaps 20% of the D1 umpires could handle Long / Advanced A or AA...

Ofcourse SCB is talking about West Coast D1 umpires, which are probably more experienced since the level/quality of baseball is quite high out there. In other parts of the country where the DI conferences are much smaller and the baseball is quite inferior, those DI umpires would probably be in for a rude awakening.

I'm much older than you suspect. I graduated from B-F long ago and was assigned through what was then called BUD (Basic Umpire Devlopment). I would tell you which leagues but that would identify me to a couple of ne'er do wells that haunt these boards. I'm still working on the ABCA meeting but Philly looks like it's where I'm going to wind up.

I never said that Midwest ball was my only foray into the circuit. I did mention what levels I was lucky enough to work. Also, I pepper many of my examples with war stories and those teams have given me away. The MiLB thread that disappeared even named a couple from way back when. That's all I can give you or the house bound will have another winter goal.

SC let me down tonight...there goes the new shin guards I promised myself. I imagine Carl is still celebrating...the Horns did a great job.

I really think it is over played how hard it would for college umpires to make the transition. I think it would be an adjustment, but not something impossible. I really do not think it would be that hard of an adjustment on a baseball diamond. Baseball is not a sport where umpires have to interject themselves in a game very much. It is either a strike or it is a ball. You are either safe or you are out. You are not talking about making a call that can potentially stop the game in most cases. I think if college football officials can handle the jump to the pros, I think college umpires can make the jump as well.

BTW, the question was asked what to other sports do. The NFL does a couple of things. First the NFL used to require officials to work 5 years of D1 ball in order to be eligible for the NFL. Now with NFL Europe and Arena Football (which the NFL owns) they use these leagues to evaluate officials and to also use as another stepping stone to get to the NFL. Also these leagues are going on during the spring so it is additional evaluation these leagues provide. So after an interview process and working games officials can get picked up. Largely the NFL uses D1 college officials, but they have stated that they are trying to recruit officials from all levels and possibly get those officials "in the program." Only time will tell.

The NBA has its own training program. The NBDL is used along with the WNBA and CBA as a training ground for possible candidates. There are also many other Pro-Am leagues across the country that the NBA uses to evaluate officials. You can make the jump from the college ranks, but it is not likely. Since the WNBA is played outside of the regular basketball season, college officials can be used to work the WNBA before making that jump. I believe Violate Palmer was a WNBA Official first before the NBA hired her. There was even a former poster on this site that worked the WNBA and was hired just this season in the NBA. The NBA wants their kind of officials not officials that necessarily work other levels. Any official can go to one of the NBA camps and you can be picked up for their Development program. If you are picked up you will likely be put into one of their many leagues that evaluate officials and if you progress you can work anything from the NBA summer leagues to some Pro-Am league across the country or you might get hired in the CBA and get move up.

I personally see working those two sports as a much harder transition because much of what you have to call as a football and basketball official deals with contact and bodies flying all over the place. As an umpire all you have to do is call pitches and basically follow the ball and the situation on the field. It is a lot easier to umpire a baseball game when you know how many runners you are going to have in any given situation and the action is not constant or will not change at the blink of an eye. I think someone with a great knowledge of the game of baseball can make that adjustment. The main thing you would have to deal with in the transition is some of the mores of the level you are working. If a umpire can do that, they should be fine.

Peace

Hmmm,
 

Sal,

Wasn't it the Northern League (the team in St. Paul)that once had a back-up rightfielder that had no legs (I believe he played at the same time Daryll Strawberry was making one of his many "returns" to baseball after a drug issue)?

Wasn't it the Northern League that this past summer allowed the first inning of a league game to be played by a simulated baseball game software program?

I agree with you. If someone claims they work "minor league" baseball and are hanging their hat on the Northern League I think they have stretched their resume.

HHH also wrote an article one time about working D1 baseball in his area. The entire article was about just how bad some D1 programs are and that he used the games on his resume but was embarrassed by the lack of quality in the programs.

So what we have is a great unknown of how anyone would do working games. The fact that is obvious is that the game would evolve and the umpires would have little to no impact on the game itself.

I make the following analogy:

If you take two evenly matched professional football teams you can have a good, competative game. It does not matter if the teams are NFL, WFL, XFL or what not . . . as long as the "teams" are from the same level of football the game will not be noticably different.

Same with umpires. Eventually whatever quality of umpires work it will become acceptable.

I don't think for a moment that the MiLB umpires will not be working their games this season. They will settle for slightly less than they are asking and the season will go forward.

WWTB, I personally deleted the thread as it had began to resemble a McGriffesque personality of personal attacks between a few of the posters.

Tee

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First off, while T was probably right, that thread needed to go, I was dissapointed, for it was a good read. I will reiterate again, the difference between what MiLB guys do and what we do...the gap is far more impressive than you could ever imagine.

Yes, over time, maybe it would shrink, but don't pretend that even for a second we could make that jump. Take for example - I played hs baseball, wasn't very good, had a lot of fun. Now, that said, give me one game in A-ball, perhaps I could lay down a bunt, or catch a really high lazy fly ball, that doesn't make me a professional player.

That said, I could probably tell the difference b/w a strike right down the middle and a ball in the dirt, but the difference, every single night, for 70 plate jobs, after a 8 hour ride and no sleep, between a slider at the knees and a fastball 2" below them? With 7,000 fans in the stands (in some places) and ex-big league managers shouting at me and $1m draft picks throwing BBs? No way.

Let's not pretend here folks, we couldn't do it, it's tougher than it looks.

Re: more
 

D.C.M.B. (I like the name),
Welcome to the board. I definately agree that the pitching is a huge difference. Most DI umpires, atleast in the north and midwest, have never seen splitters, nasty sliders or 90+ fastballs with lot of movement. Also, the accuracy in pro ball (difference between a ball and a strike) is so miniscue and combine that with the strength of the catchers sticking pitches, many NCAA umpires' would be flipping coins and calling balls & strikes.

I also agree that playing in stadiums with 5,000+ people is much different than the typical college "field" with 150 parents in the stands. Moreover, unlike many college coaches, PRO Managers have a "clue" and they can smell when an umpire is struggling. They can get in you head and rattle you very easily if you're not experienced on handling situations. Not to mention dealing with rain situations (gate fee considerations), bean ball (self policing the game) etc., I think many DI umpires would be like a "deer in headlights"

I do not think it would be easy, but it would not be at all impossible either. Many here are also assuming that working a baseball game with 7,000 people would be a huge transition. Well I can tell you that I have worked football games with nearly that many people and I have worked basketball games is small gyms with a couple of thousand people with the fans in your back pocket during the entire game. I am not saying I would be able to make the transition, but I am not the only person that has that kind of experience. Are you telling me Randy Crystal (sp?) who has worked multiple College World Series and has worked in some of the biggest college football games in the Big 12 and worked a National Championship game in 2002 could not make the transition to the Minor Leagues? You have got to be kidding me. Many Minor League Umpires never umpired a single HS game before they got a shot to work pro ball. If someone that only worked a couple HS games baseball in their career can work a Minor League schedule, do not tell me someone that has been working Major D1 ball could not make that transition if asked. Also when someone said that the first round draft pick pitching would be a challenge, well I could not even tell you who that player is every year and many of them do not even make it to the Majors at all. I can think of countless players that were drafted by a Major League team only to go back to college and finish their career playing football or basketball. Or those players will never be heard from again. Let us not make it sound as if this would be any harder in baseball than other sports. Baseball is also not a sport where everything changes based on what an offense or defense is run. The game is about pitching, hitting and fielding. None of that is going to change as you move through the ranks. That does change drastically in football and basketball and those officials have been making those transitions for years. I am not saying it would be easy, but it would not be such a feet that many could not make the transition. There would be an obvious adjustment period from all and some would work out better than others.

I think that the ego of those that work pro ball would like us to think that there is a harder road for those that work D1 ball or any other college ball. In reality I do not think it would be that hard of an adjustment. Of course that is my opinion but all we are doing here is speculating anyway.

Peace

"none of that is going to change as you move through the ranks" ???

I don't want to be rude, but let's get real here fellas.

If this was true, then why does MLB not hire guys out of umpire school? Because not only does the entire game change (national TV, fans etc.) but because the pitching gets faster, plays get made. Curveballs curve more, fastballs move (I've heard stories about rookies who thoughts fastballs were sliders they moved so much). Balls that are singles through the hole in rookie ball are balls that are got to in AA, balls that are got to for ground outs in AA are turned into double plays every time in the major leagues.

I'm not saying it would be impossible, but let's not kid ourselves either. I couldn't do it, and neither could most of you.

I get the idea that a slider might be misinterpreted as a fastball. I clearly believe the hardest transition would be working the plate. I think that is the hardest skill to learn as an umpire period at any level. What I do not understand is why it would be a difficult transition for an umpire to understand a ball that a fielder would not get at one level that they would get at the pro level? Fielders getting to hit balls would seem to make my job easier not harder. Also without the lack of aluminum bats at the pro levels I would think fielders would more likely get to most balls hit. If fielders can get to more balls hit, that would make my life a lot easier for umpires I would think. I would also think that the fact the players know what the heck they are doing at the pro level more than most amateur players I would think that alone would make my job easier as an umpire. Many amateurs do not know what they want to do half the time and you find yourself doing things to adjust on the fly.

I just do not see the sky falling if D1 officials ever had to work pro ball.

Peace

Rut,
Do yourself a favor and go back to the basketball/football section of this forum because when it comes to baseball, you're about as clueless as most of the coaches out there.

Randy Christal would do a fine job working MiLB but there are very few umpires at the DI level that can work like him. As for your other ignorant comment about MiLB umpires skipping HS ball and going straight to the PRO game. You forgot to mention one thing, they are PROFESSIONALLY TRAINED and developed umpires - something that many college umpires don't have.

Face it, many NCAA umpires are either self taught or are "grey hairs" still hanging around the system because of "who they know" (mainly coaches). The fact is that college umpiring is getting younger and improving because of the training that is now available. Umpires' credentials are no longer based on how many years they've been umpiring but rather what experience and training they have had.

If you look at the NCAA umpires who work the big games (CWS and Super Regionals), many of them have previous PRO experience, usally at the AA & AAA levels. I'm done talking about this because I don't want to appear that I am bashing NCAA umpires, because I am one. I have a lot of respect of college umpires (for any umpires at any level for that fact), and we'll just leave it at that.

Here is the thing; all of this is like talking about what would happen if USC played some of the great teams in college football history. ESPN did that all last week and it meant nothing in the bigger picture. Texas beat USC anyway. I am sorry you think your opinion is so valuable, but it is not any more important than what I have stated. This is all speculation and all egos in this conversation. Maybe there are many that could not make the transition, but there are many that could. Not because I say so, but because there are people in this world that take on challenges and constantly succeed. Many D1 officials have had to overcome a lot to get to where they are and you are going to tell me they could not jump this hurdle? OK, whatever you say. As I said umpiring baseball is a lot easier than working a basketball game or a football game any day. Not because I say so, because most people that are successful basketball and football officials that take up umpiring tend to be better than those that have done nothing but work baseball. Why, because the skills it takes are very easy to adjust to. Some of the fattest and most out of shape officials in history of officiating have worked the Major League level (cough, Eric Gregg).

You are right, maybe I should stick to football and basketball because this absurd conversation would almost never be something that folks that officiate those sports would talk about. They would not ever make it sound as if they are so good that they cannot make that transition. As a matter of fact I have an NFL official that is in the same association I belong to (1 of 3 NFL officials to be accurate) and he says all the time the only reason he is in the NFL over many other people is that he got a shot. He never talks as if no one could make the jump. I have even heard many D1 and high level basketball officials make it clear that they are only where they are because they took advantage of the right breaks. When I come here you would make it sound like someone's skill would have to jump Pacific Ocean like advancement to even handle a pro game. It is also not like we are talking about a JH umpire making the jump from the pros. You said that a D1 umpire that might range from the 20 year veteran to the rookie could not make the transition to the pro game because the coaches know more? I am sorry. I am not buying that at all. I am not saying I could make that jump from where I am right now, but it would not be impossible if I got the opportunity. I do not think it would be impossible for anyone that is a go-getter and has confidence in themselves and will do the things it takes to achieve.

Peace

I work three sports (baseball, basketball, and football) at about the same level (HS varsity, although I work in 2 D-III baseball confereces) and the toughest thing in any of the sports is being a solid, consistent plate umpire. Nothing else comes close.

Rich, I also work those three sports and I think that being a consistent plate umpire is only the second toughest.

The toughest job is staying out of the way or 250 lb lineman or running backs as the umpire in football. :D That's why I stick to linesman, line judge, or field judge.

That's probably because you never had to work guys who can consistently throw a 90 mph cutters on the oustide corner or deuces that buckle the knees and end up just hitting the inside corner.

Unless I'm mistaken, the athletes don't make it a point of throwing the ball at you in basketball and football. Watching an excellent curve ball develop in flight or tracking a tailing/rising/sinking fastball is much tougher than spying linemen holding.

Your assessment would be completely wrong. If Bob is an umpire on a football field, he is dodging 200-300 pound players that will do more damage if they hit him than a baseball being thrown at 100 miles per hour. Also a football umpire is being used as a pick play with tight ends running routes and you have to be careful not to get in the way when a running back is coming up the middle and you have no pads to protect yourself. Getting hit with a baseball is not that bad considering you have a bunch of padding in most places and the higher you work you are not likely to get hit with a baseball.

Secondly, a plate umpire only has to watch a baseball being thrown by a pitcher for a couple of seconds. A football official is watching several players in a small area for several seconds and you cannot watch the ball to do your job. A basketball official has to watch 10 players in an even smaller area and we do not get the luxury to stop after a second or two and wait for the next play. The action for the most part is constant and the clock does not run when the ball is obviously dead. As a plate umpire if a batter swings and hits the ball, I do not call anything. I can go up and down the court several times and make 20 decisions (which will not bring a whistle).

Now for some it might be a harder thing to work the plate, but working the plate is not as big of a chore as working a basketball game or football game in my opinion. Also, if I am working the bases it is even less of a struggle. And a football and basketball official has to fight to get into position to make a call. I have never had to fight hard to get into position to call a pitch.

Peace

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"I have never had to fight to get into position to call a pitch."

To me this shows the level of ball you work and your experience. The same way that Ted Williams said hitting a baseball is the most difficult thing in sports, calling a consistent plate game is the most difficult job in officiating.

WWTB:
 

WWTB wrote:

" . . . excellent curve ball develop in flight or tracking a tailing/rising/sinking fastball . . ."

It is against the laws of physics for a thrown baseball to rise.

It cannot happen . . . just like there is no such things as a "late breaking curve ball" or a ball that "speeds up when taking a second bounce on artifical turf."

A ball "can" not sink as much as expected . . . but it cannot "rise."

Tee

Re: more...
 

Why is it all the officials that have worked other sports, take up baseball and excel? I know more officials that just picked up baseball and are a hell of a lot better than the guys that work 1000 games a year working only baseball.

Ted Williams' statement also does not apply. As an umpire I do not have to hit a pitch, I just have to decide if the ball crossed the strike zone and the plate. In one of my football playoff games this past season, I made a pass interference call that drew more attention than any pitch I have ever called in any game. When I call things in football and basketball, I have to see the play, decide if there was a foul, decide if their was some advantage, protect the safety of the players, then after all that has gone through my head, make a call. All I have to do is decide if the ball crossed the strike zone on a pitch that is caught over the plate. Yeah, really hard.

Peace

The 90 MPH cutter on the outside is harder for me to get right than the deuce that just hits the inside corner. That's an easy call.

From the limited wisdom of Rut...

"When I call things in football and basketball, I have to see the play, decide if there was a foul, decide if their was some advantage, protect the safety of the players, then after all that has gone through my head, make a call. All I have to do is decide if the ball crossed the strike zone on a pitch that is caught over the plate. Yeah, really hard."

I guess he has never seen a collision at the plate with the ball game on the line. That's much easier than, say, a roughing the passer or flagrant foul in football.

In baseball, I only have to worry about the running lane, the proper angle, whether the ball is held and a tag is applied (sometimes while straightlined) and if the runner tagged the plate. Then I have to decide which occured first and make the PROPER call.

I couldn't stop laughing when you wrote that you have to protect the safety of the players during an active play. How do you do that, perhaps you have forcefield powers???
LMAO

Windbag, you are a one hit wonder. When you decide to work a real sport call me.

Peace

Re: WWTB:
 

Actually Tim, that is not entirely correct. A thrown baseball can rise, depending on the speed and elevation angle when released. It will not curve up, but it can rise. This I know.

If a ball is hit with enough velocity and spin, the first bounce will hit so fast that the overspin will only minimally effect the ball, but once the that velocity dips as the ball hits a second time, the overspin can cause it to kick forward and pick up speed for a short second. Just enough to screw you up. I think...

:-)

Re: Re: WWTB:
 

"Most significantly, I discovered that in order for the ball to truly rise in flight--for the Magnus force to exceed the weight of the ball--the pitch would have to be launched with a backspin of more than 3600 rpm. This is far beyond the capacity of any major league pitcher. High-speed photography shows that spin rates of about 1800 rpm are the best that can be achieved. Thus, it is not humanly possible to throw a true rising fastball. With the ball spinning at 1800 rpm and traveling at 90 mph, the Magnus force retards the vertical drop by a little more than a foot. Instead of dropping 3 ft. vertically on its way to the plate, the ball drops slightly less than 2 ft. I concluded that the rising fastball is an optical illusion. The ball appears to rise only because it doesn't fall as much as the batter expects it to--in other words, the ball rises only in relation to the batter's expectations."
http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...tml?page=2&c=y


"Even the greatest pitchers can't violate the laws of physics. Once a ball is thrown, it follows a smooth trajectory. Physics simply doesn't allow abrupt jumps in that trajectory.
So what's happening? 'The batter is using the wrong mental model,' Bahill says."
http://uanews.org/cgi-bin/WebObjects...ArticleID=1109

Rut, You are a Stud Muffin. I want to be just like You when You grow up.

Dave
****

Re: Re: Re: WWTB:
 

As I said, the ball will not curve up. But a ball can thrown at a launch elevation angle so that it will achieve a greater height after it is thrown than when it was released. You've never seen a pitch rise up and go over the catchers head. Clearly that can and does happen.

Elevation angle...

My guess is that some of you have ever had a side arm style pitcher on the mound. If you did, you would know that the fastball CAN and DOES rise. You would also be aware that a curve ball thrown by a good side armer will act an awful lot like a screwball.


Rut, When you are considered knowledgeable in any sport, give me a call. Wait, I forgot, you once were invited to instruct rookies at an umpire clinic. Wow, so was BigDump. You guys should write abook about your extensive knowledge of the game - call it "ChUMPS that Know Everything about Everything". Even one of your assignors told you to shut up. We know...we know, you have the right to say what you want. Blah, blah, blah, yada, yada, yada, Rosa Parks, strong black man, vindication baby, it's basketball/football season and I really don't care about baseball...ROTFLMAO and it seems so are others. I tried to stay away but you just make it so darn easy.

Dodging a 250 pound player or getting hit by a 90 mph baseball...hmmmmmmm, why is it that the slow, fat guy always is the football umpire? I guess he must have the reflexes of a cat. Even on the football site they laugh at you.