We couldn't reach a consensus on this play so I thought I would see what you guys and gals thought.


OBR-


B1 hit's the ball hard off the plate, resulting in a high bounce back toward the mound R1 looks and thinking it's a fly ball, turn's to go back to first. BR has already touched 1B when F3, just dumbly watching the play, idly steps into R1's direct path to 1B, resulting in a collision. While both are on the ground, F1 fields the ball and throws for force out at 2B.


The out call is a no brainer here as there's no way to protect R1 to second base the way this play finished. My question to you would be, do you call the delayed dead ball obstruction and wait to see what happens, or do you ignore the obstruction altogether as R1 was not entitled to return to first base with it occupied.


Tim.

I would call the obstruction, but not apply a ruling because the base was occupied. Had the obstruction not occurred, R1 would not have made it to 2nd before the throw. thus, obstruction, but no award.

How about awarding BR 1st base?

D

BR has already reached first.

I understand what you are saying here, but if you're going to call the obstruction "the obstructed runner shall be awarded at least one base..." (7.06a). What I'm saying is you can't have obstrction but no award

So I think you have to ignore the obstruction and call R1 out at second.


[Edited by CJN on Jan 4th, 2006 at 11:05 PM]

OK, not "award," but protect BR to 1st.

Tomato, toma(ah)to.

Sorry, dangit!

I read the play wrong. I was assuming that the BR was obstructed.

Eye yam sew far king wee Todd Ed.

[Edited by D-Man on Jan 6th, 2006 at 11:05 PM]

R1 was obstructed. Doesn't matter that he was returning to first. Think of a rundown - doesn't matter there which direction the runner was going, so why should it here? Award him second base. First baseman learns a lesson, and BR gets first, because he was already there (if I read the posts right.).

JJ

This would be type "B" obstruction which is a protection to an advance base, if any , that will nullify the act of the obstruction.

The BR was not obstructed before reaching first base, and no play was being made on the obstructed runner. My question was more toward would you signal the delayed dead ball obstruction, or just let it go because R1 was attempting to return to a base he had been forced from.

Tim.

JJ,
This is type B obstruction under OBR. F1 is the protected fielder, so there is no interference by R1, and F1 doesn't make a play until after the obstruction occurs. A rundown is not a similar situation: it is type A--the runner is being played on, and PBUC 4.29 specifically states a rundown is type A.
So call the obstruction and subsequently "impose such penalties, if any, that nullify the act of obstruction." In this case, I would award nothing, because there was no safety at first base.

BigUmp56,
There was obstruction--call it and call R1 out.

Dave Reed

I'd ask myself the following:

Did F3 have the ball? No.

Was R1 obstructed? Yes.

Do I care where R1 was going? No.

Is this Type A or B obstruction? Well F1 is playing on the obstructed runner so it's Type A.

TIME! - R1 gets 2nd base.

If it were FED, if you call Obstruction, you had better make an award.

Ozzy:

In order to judge that this is type "A" obstruction the ball would have needed to be in flight to second base either before or at the time of the obstruction. R1 was obstructed before F1 had possession of the ball.


Tim.

Really? I never realzed that there was a time line for calling Type A. R1 is forced to 2nd in this play - he got obstructed - the defense made a play on him. Type A.

Tim may have a point. (Bolding added)

MLBUM 5.1:

<i>A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player <b>who has possession of the ball</b> to actually retire a runner. This may include an actual attempt to tag a runner, a fielder running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag a runner, or actually throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to retire a runner. (The fact that the runner is not out is not relevant.) A fake or a feint to throw shall not be deemed a play or an attempted play.</i>

MLBUM 6.21:

<i>The first type of obstruction (Official Baseball Rule 7.06(a)) deals with cases when the runner is obstructed <b>WHILE a play is being made</b> on him. Examples of this type of obstruction include:

(1) Runner is obstructed during a rundown.

(2) Runner is obstructed <b>as a fielder is making a direct throw</b> to a base in an attempt to retire that runner.

(3) Batter-runner is obstructed before reaching first base on a ground ball to an infielder.

(4) Any other example where <b>a play is being made</b> directly on the runner <b>at the moment he is obstructed</b>.</i>

As the ball was not yet fielded. let alone thrown, until after the obstructon, none of the above conditions for type A were met. The fielder did not have possession at the time. No throw was being made at the time.

Therefore, it's type B

i always interpreted obstruction the same way you did Oz...

hmmm...

The MLBUM then goes on to define type "B" obstruction with several examples.

The second type of obstruction (Official baseball rule 7.06(B))deals with cases when the runner is obstructed while NO PLAY is being made on him. Examples of this type of obstruction include:

5)Any other example where no play is being made directly on the runner at the moment he is obstructed.



Tim.

First, there is no reason to protect the BR to first in this situation.

Second, I believe you have obstruction, in FED delayed dead ball ( and award of 2nd, by rule.. 8.3.2). In OBR, in my judgement, you have type B (no play being made on runner AT THE TIME of the obstruction, this is not a run down, and the force was made after the act of obstruction vs. during it) but you may still call the out.

Truthfully, in OBR, the difference between Type A and Type B in this case is moot. Killing the play is of no consequence as there was no subsequent action.

Bob

You don't want to kill the play immediately because F1 could throw the ball into CF, or do some other thing that would allow the runner to advance safely on his own.

Good point, Rich, I had not considered that.

I personally would call it "type B" and let the play continue.

Bob

Okay, the play has been asked and answered. Now, the important stuff...

Let's say the ball is hit high off the plate, we've all seen this, right? When have you ever seen a batter get to first before R1 discovers that it wasn't a fly ball? What was the first base coach doing? If R1 didn't see it, surely F3 did and knows he has to get ready for a play. Even with a hit and run, I can't concieve of this play happening on a 90 ft. field. Since we were discussing OBR, this can't be small ball on a 60 foot field, can it? I can't recall ever penalizing an eight year old for obstruction and most of those leagues don't allow lead offs.

Finally, I can't ever recall an umpire yelling, "That's Obstruction - Type B". Call the play and let them advance like the book allows. If they advance and are put out because of their mistake, too bad.

<i>Let's say the ball is hit high off the plate, we've all seen this, right?</i>

Yes.

<i>When have you ever seen a batter get to first before R1 discovers that it wasn't a fly ball?</i>

It happens in youth ball.

<i>What was the first base coach doing?</i>

In youth ball there's a good chance he's daydreaming or not aware of the situation.

<i>If R1 didn't see it, surely F3 did and knows he has to get ready for a play.</i>

But even if there's going to be a play, it's obstruction if it happens before it starts.

<i>Even with a hit and run, I can't concieve of this play happening on a 90 ft. field.</i>

It could happen in the 13-14 age group.

<i>Since we were discussing OBR, this can't be small ball on a 60 foot field, can it?</i>

Sure - most youth leagues use OBR based rules. The only one that doesn't is AAU.

<i>I can't recall ever penalizing an eight year old for obstruction</i>

And most umpires at that level wouldn't call it because they're rank beginners and probably don't know it when they see it.

<i>and most of those leagues don't allow lead offs.</i>

Not relevant - a leadoff isn't necessary to make the play happen, and anyhow, as soon as the pitch reaches the batter the runners can leave their basees.

regardless, this play would never happen.

there is no way the BR can go 90 or i'll even give you 60 ft and be ON THE BASE when R1, who is no more than 10 or 15 feet on the bag tries to go back to the bag. and in the meantime F3 has time to obstruct him...

definition of TWP

You haven't spent enough time at the 12U rec league level. It's entirely possible. A runner with his head in the clouds is a regular happening.

Finally, some good stuff.

OBR - R1 is not obstructed since he can not return to 1B, he is forced to 2B. R1 is out on the play.

FED - R1 is not obstructed since he can not return to 1B, he is forced to 2B. R1 is out on the play.

If this were not so, runners would be coached to do strange things when they know they are dead meat at the next base.

asinine plays like this are why people move on

Sorry, no way. Neither clause [..confuse opponents .../ ...travesty ..] applies. The "headupwazoo" ruling, uh, maybe.

My two cents:

In OBR, I would call R1 out at 2B. The obstruction had no effect on the outcome. J/R cites similar plays.

Fed is another story, since it does not distinguish between A and B, and its interpretations are more absolute. For example, BR gets a hit to center field and takes a wide turn around 1B. BR scrambles back to 1B and, as the throw comes in to 2B, trips over F3's foot. In OBR, BR is simply protected to 1B. In Fed, he is awarded 2B.

To take an extreme example, Abel on 2B, Baker on 1B, two outs. Charles hits a hard one-hopper to F5, who gloves the ball and starts to trot toward 3B to get the easy force on Abel. However, Abel, running toward 3B, suddenly reverses direction and crashes into F6, who was in the baseline as he made his way toward his dugout, anticipating the obvious third out.

On OBR, this OBS is ignored and Abel is out.

When I did Fed years ago, I would also have ignored that OBS even though, technically, it should be called.

Please tell us, enlightened one, what you feel we should talk about.

This isn't all that as impossible as you suggest. R1 is off on the pitch. His head is down and he's haulin' @$$ toward second. He hears the contact of the bat and the ball and looks up and see's it high in the air over the mound. He stops in his tracks, turns around and attempts to go back to first. F3 is now looking up at the ball and steps into his path back to first obstructing him causing him to fall. By the time he gets back to his feet BR is now on first base. F1 throws the ball to F6 and F6 miss-plays the ball letting it go into the outfield. F8 subsequently throws out R1 at second as he's just coming into the bag. Now you have to consider post-obstruction evidence and decide had there been no obstruction would R1 have reached second base safely. Your call, but it would be hard to sell a safe call in this situation if you didn't at least note the delayed dead ball obstruction. The out call is easy as this play panned out, but had something other than F1 simply making a good throw to force the runner and get the out, the safe call is going to be tough if you didn't call it.

I don't buy the argument that he cannot return toward a base he's been forced from. I agree that he and the BR cannot occupy that base, but the basepath belongs to him both ways until he's been put out.

Tim.

"Please tell us, enlightened one, what you feel we should talk about.

This isn't all that as impossible as you suggest. R1 is off on the pitch. His head is down and he's haulin' @$$ toward second. He hears the contact of the bat and the ball and looks up and see's it high in the air over the mound. He stops in his tracks, turns around and attempts to go back to first. F3 is now looking up at the ball and steps into his path back to first obstructing him causing him to fall. By the time he gets back to his feet BR is now on first base. F1 throws the ball to F6 and F6 miss-plays the ball letting it go into the outfield. F8 subsequently throws out R1 at second as he's just coming into the bag."

[/B]I think most of us agree that there is very little possibility of this play actually happening. Even Rich agrees that it would take 13-14 year olds to be involved and I have yet to see one beat the baserunner to first on that type of play.

While most youth leagues use OBR based rules, most don't allow leadoffs on 60' bases. The hit and run is moot and the idea that the kid is fooled is absurd to anyone older than a freshman in high school.

The most pressing point that has been missed is that R1 is not entitled to protection going back to first. He mistakenly thought it was a fly ball and ran into the fielder who was standing away from the base. The onus is not on the fielder to get out of his way on something like this play. He should never expect the runner to return to the base! The collision is the fault of the runner. At that level, I don't call Obstruction on the fielder for the bonehead base running of R1. If the coach barks, I say, "Your runner ran into him coach. Where should F3 stand on that play? He is getting ready for the throw to first, not a returning runner! Go away before my head explodes."[/B]

[Edited by WhatWuzThatBlue on Jan 5th, 2006 at 11:18 PM]

Yep - lots of folks can't deal with the inexperience and undiciplined reactions of dealing with young, still learning children. Move on if you're in this category. Just recognize that there are many who like being part of the learning process - and it doesn't make them lesser people. That's why we have elementary school teachers and university professors. Both necessary. Neither a lesser part of the child's growth. Applies to sports too.

I don't think I missed this most pressing point. "R1 is not obstructed since he can not return to 1B, he is forced to 2B. R1 is out on the play."

DG -

My humblest apologies for the oversight. I didn't intend to overlook your opinion. At least a few of us acknowledge that we don't have obstruction here. Someone else wrote it, but I love it...penalize those who are stupid or cheat. The runner was stupid, not the first baseman.


WWTB

This is the definition of 'moot', since we're all (I think) calling R1 out; however:

R1 isn't "entitled to protection" at any time he's running the bases until something like OBS is called. So whether to call OBS cannot hinge on whether he is "entitled to protection."

Although R1 is forced to 2B, he is not violating any base running rules by moving back toward 1B. Therefore, he is making a legitimate (albeit dumb) attempt to run the bases. If F3 hinders him, that's obstruction (type B, I think).

Two points in support of this claim: (1) the onus is on the defense to stay out of the way of the runner, unless they're making a play, so when they fail to do so, that's OBS.

(2) In a different kind of play, you might legitimately see a forced R1 move back to 1B. E.g. with R1, squibber in front of plate, BR hesitates, F2 grabs the ball and tags him. R1 sees the squib and takes a step toward 1B.

Suppose F3 hinders R1 before the tag on BR: you're not going to call OBS because R1 is not "entitled to protection" back to 1B, since at that moment he's forced?

And yeah, I know it's a different case: I'm using it to illustrate the more limited point that R1 has done nothing wrong and might be obstructed even if he steps back to 1B when forced to 2B. The different cases would warrant different penalties.

OK, that's my contribution to TWP follies...

"Although R1 is forced to 2B, he is not violating any base running rules by moving back toward 1B. Therefore, he is making a legitimate (albeit dumb) attempt to run the bases. If F3 hinders him, that's obstruction (type B, I think).

Two points in support of this claim: (1) the onus is on the defense to stay out of the way of the runner, unless they're making a play, so when they fail to do so, that's OBS."

I disagree. As I said earlier, if runners can run backwards when forced to advance to create obstruction calls, they will be coached to do so, when there is an obvious out in front of them. The onus is not on the defense to stay out of the way of runners who are going backwards when they are forced.

I'm still not buying this as obstruction but for sake of discussion let's call this a Type B (OBR) and award him the base he would have acquired had the obstruction not occured. Since he is running backwards he would have still been out, so he would not have reached a bsse.

No way I call obstruction, in OBR or FED, on a runner who is returning to a base from which he is forced to advance.

Ahh - but he isn't forced to physically advance - he just loses his right to the base. The classic "did F3 tag the base or the runner first" play would not be possible unless the runner was on or near enough to the base to make the play possible.

Oh, stop it, Rich. He is 'forced to advance' when another runner has successfully reached that base and occupies it. He is no longer entitled to stay there and any attempt to return to it is at his peril.

This is a game of semantics and a reasoned official knows better. The kid in this play messed up and caused the collision.

R1 is leading off, and F6 is shading toward 2B for a LH batter. Batter hits a short hopper to SS who fields and steps on the bag and begins his throw to F3. R1 thinks it was a caught line drive so he is returning to 1B and runs into F3 who is moving toward the bag to receive the end of the 6-3 DP. And the call is obstruction, award R1 2B. Come on, get real.

I'm real. I also know the rule.

Type B OBS requires no award: you must nullify the OBS. In the play, R1 is retired at 2B on the force out; he would have been out anyway without the OBS; thus no need to award a base.

But it's still obstruction. Kinda moot, as I said, since we're both calling R1 out. How many internet umpires can dance on the head of a pin?

I know this was an OBR question, but what would you do in a FED game?

In Fed it's a one base award minimum isn't it?


Tim.

Yesm

[/B]"R1 is leading off, and F6 is shading toward 2B for a LH batter. Batter hits a short hopper to SS who fields and steps on the bag and begins his throw to F3. R1 thinks it was a caught line drive so he is returning to 1B and runs into F3 who is moving toward the bag to receive the end of the 6-3 DP. And the call is obstruction, award R1 2B. Come on, get real."[/B]


I've got to be missing something here...someone actually bought this? (I know your intent DG, so this is not meant for you.)

If the baserunner makes a flagrant mistake and runs into the fielder who is in his correct position, getting ready to field the ball - you will penalize the defense?

The baserunner was wrong...it is stated clearly. Who cares if he made a mistake and didn't know it wasn't a line drive? He caused the collision to occur because he was running to a base he was not entitled to hold. F3 was in the process of fielding his normal position. Why wouldn't every coach in the world just tell his players to double back when they think a double play will occur. Smack into the first baseman and you'll put him on second. I have got to start coaching a team in your leagues. We'll destroy the competition.

It's a one base award IF obstruction is called. But as I have tried to point out, this is not obstruction, it's stupid base running.

Agreed,
 

DG I agree with you.

As Rich Fronheiser taught me:

"Never reward dumb base running."

This thread is why I don't care for TWP . . . contrary to other posts this play could not happen and is (as one of the leading professional umpire trainers has intoned about much of internet umpiring sites) mental masturbation at best.

Tee

Thank you TAC - I knew you must have had a slip when you considered the rising ball phenomena. It's nice to have the reasoned, experienced umpire back - and the arrogance doesn't bother me so much anymore. I won't ask for Pete's opinion! ;)

This thread reminds me of the similar, much discussed, play: R1, off on the pitch. BR flies to right. F1 realizes that there might be a chance to "double up" R1, so F1 moves to back up the expected throw from F9 to F3. While crossing the foul line, F1 gets in the way of BR. The fly ball is caught. Place the runners.

NAPBL (and probably other OBR sources) have specific language that the obstruction is ignored. IMO, that logic should be applied to FED as well.

I wouldn't have to place the runners. BR is out, and R1 is either out or safe on his return to 1B, depending on when the ball arrived from F9.

Bob,
The PBUC Manual treats Batter/Runner obstructed before reaching 1st base in section 4.30. I wouldn't characterize the recommended mechanic as "ignoring" the obstruction. Nor does the reason for F1 obstructing enter into consideration.

PBUC says "..if the batter runner is obstructed before reaching first base on a fly ball or line drive that is caught, the B/R is out. The reasoning here is that the obstruction had no bearing on the fact that the batter hit a fly ball that was caught by the defense. Similarly, should the B/R be obstructed before reaching first base on a foul ball not caught, the foul ball prevails. Again, the reasoning is that the obstruction had nothing to do with the fact that the runner hit a foul ball."
It then considers three cases: ground ball to an infielder, pop fly or line drive to an infielder, and
" Case 3: B/R is obstructed before reaching 1st base on a ball hit to the outfield. Ruling: Call the obstruction by pointing at the obstruction and yelling "that's obstruction"; however, leave the ball in play until all action has ceased. Then call "time" and impose such penalties, if any, that will nullify the act of obstruction. If a fly ball is caught in this situation, batter-runner is out...."

IMO, this logic and mechanic can't be applied to FED rules, given FED's automatic award of at least one base.

That is, of course, the counter argument.

Maybe someone who has the ear of someone on the FED rules committee can get them to address this.

The FED penalty for obstruction is not applied if the runner is not entitled to run, thus a caught fly ball is an out, an uncaught fly ball is just that regardless of what happened to the batter on his way to 1B. And if a runner is forced he must go forward to get obstruction not backward.

Think about it, if we automatically award the next base, then every high fly to the outfield would be an opportunity for BR to round 1B and run into F3 and get awarded 2B and every easy DP ball to the SS would be an opportunity for R1 to return to 1st to get obstruction call on F3 and get awarded 2B. This can not be the intent of FED.