Obstruction

[RPatrino]

First, there is no reason to protect the BR to first in this situation.

Second, I believe you have obstruction, in FED delayed dead ball ( and award of 2nd, by rule.. 8.3.2). In OBR, in my judgement, you have type B (no play being made on runner AT THE TIME of the obstruction, this is not a run down, and the force was made after the act of obstruction vs. during it) but you may still call the out.

Truthfully, in OBR, the difference between Type A and Type B in this case is moot. Killing the play is of no consequence as there was no subsequent action.

Bob

[Rich Ives]

Originally posted by RPatrino
First, there is no reason to protect the BR to first in this situation.

Second, I believe you have obstruction, in FED delayed dead ball ( and award of 2nd, by rule.. 8.3.2). In OBR, in my judgement, you have type B (no play being made on runner AT THE TIME of the obstruction, this is not a run down, and the force was made after the act of obstruction vs. during it) but you may still call the out.

Truthfully, in OBR, the difference between Type A and Type B in this case is moot. Killing the play is of no consequence as there was no subsequent action.

Bob

You don't want to kill the play immediately because F1 could throw the ball into CF, or do some other thing that would allow the runner to advance safely on his own.

[RPatrino]

Good point, Rich, I had not considered that.

I personally would call it "type B" and let the play continue.

Bob

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Originally posted by BigUmp56
We couldn't reach a consensus on this play so I thought I would see what you guys and gals thought.


OBR-


B1 hit's the ball hard off the plate, resulting in a high bounce back toward the mound R1 looks and thinking it's a fly ball, turn's to go back to first. BR has already touched 1B when F3, just dumbly watching the play, idly steps into R1's direct path to 1B, resulting in a collision. While both are on the ground, F1 fields the ball and throws for force out at 2B.


The out call is a no brainer here as there's no way to protect R1 to second base the way this play finished. My question to you would be, do you call the delayed dead ball obstruction and wait to see what happens, or do you ignore the obstruction altogether as R1 was not entitled to return to first base with it occupied.


Tim.

Okay, the play has been asked and answered. Now, the important stuff...

Let's say the ball is hit high off the plate, we've all seen this, right? When have you ever seen a batter get to first before R1 discovers that it wasn't a fly ball? What was the first base coach doing? If R1 didn't see it, surely F3 did and knows he has to get ready for a play. Even with a hit and run, I can't concieve of this play happening on a 90 ft. field. Since we were discussing OBR, this can't be small ball on a 60 foot field, can it? I can't recall ever penalizing an eight year old for obstruction and most of those leagues don't allow lead offs.

Finally, I can't ever recall an umpire yelling, "That's Obstruction - Type B". Call the play and let them advance like the book allows. If they advance and are put out because of their mistake, too bad.

[Rich Ives]

Let's say the ball is hit high off the plate, we've all seen this, right?

Yes.

When have you ever seen a batter get to first before R1 discovers that it wasn't a fly ball?

It happens in youth ball.

What was the first base coach doing?

In youth ball there's a good chance he's daydreaming or not aware of the situation.

If R1 didn't see it, surely F3 did and knows he has to get ready for a play.

But even if there's going to be a play, it's obstruction if it happens before it starts.

Even with a hit and run, I can't concieve of this play happening on a 90 ft. field.

It could happen in the 13-14 age group.

Since we were discussing OBR, this can't be small ball on a 60 foot field, can it?

Sure - most youth leagues use OBR based rules. The only one that doesn't is AAU.

I can't recall ever penalizing an eight year old for obstruction

And most umpires at that level wouldn't call it because they're rank beginners and probably don't know it when they see it.

and most of those leagues don't allow lead offs.

Not relevant - a leadoff isn't necessary to make the play happen, and anyhow, as soon as the pitch reaches the batter the runners can leave their basees.

[largeone59]

regardless, this play would never happen.

there is no way the BR can go 90 or i'll even give you 60 ft and be ON THE BASE when R1, who is no more than 10 or 15 feet on the bag tries to go back to the bag. and in the meantime F3 has time to obstruct him...

definition of TWP

[Rich Ives]

Originally posted by largeone59
regardless, this play would never happen.

there is no way the BR can go 90 or i'll even give you 60 ft and be ON THE BASE when R1, who is no more than 10 or 15 feet on the bag tries to go back to the bag. and in the meantime F3 has time to obstruct him...

definition of TWP

You haven't spent enough time at the 12U rec league level. It's entirely possible. A runner with his head in the clouds is a regular happening.

[DG]

Finally, some good stuff.

OBR - R1 is not obstructed since he can not return to 1B, he is forced to 2B. R1 is out on the play.

FED - R1 is not obstructed since he can not return to 1B, he is forced to 2B. R1 is out on the play.

If this were not so, runners would be coached to do strange things when they know they are dead meat at the next base.

[briancurtin]

Originally posted by Rich Ives
You haven't spent enough time at the 12U rec league level.

asinine plays like this are why people move on

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by PWL


In FED, I have him as an out. Rule 8-4 Art. 2 Para. n.

Runs bases in reverse to confuse opponents or makes a travesty of the game.

Sorry, no way. Neither clause [..confuse opponents .../ ...travesty ..] applies. The "headupwazoo" ruling, uh, maybe.

[greymule]

My two cents:

In OBR, I would call R1 out at 2B. The obstruction had no effect on the outcome. J/R cites similar plays.

Fed is another story, since it does not distinguish between A and B, and its interpretations are more absolute. For example, BR gets a hit to center field and takes a wide turn around 1B. BR scrambles back to 1B and, as the throw comes in to 2B, trips over F3's foot. In OBR, BR is simply protected to 1B. In Fed, he is awarded 2B.

To take an extreme example, Abel on 2B, Baker on 1B, two outs. Charles hits a hard one-hopper to F5, who gloves the ball and starts to trot toward 3B to get the easy force on Abel. However, Abel, running toward 3B, suddenly reverses direction and crashes into F6, who was in the baseline as he made his way toward his dugout, anticipating the obvious third out.

On OBR, this OBS is ignored and Abel is out.

When I did Fed years ago, I would also have ignored that OBS even though, technically, it should be called.

[BigUmp56]

Originally posted by PWL

You mean headupass plays. I would hope when people go to the bathroom they would take a newspaper and keep up on current affairs like everyone else. Who makes up this crap (play on words)?

Let's talk about something more likely to happen....getting struck by lightning....winning the lottery.

[Edited by PWL on Jan 5th, 2006 at 10:00 PM]

Please tell us, enlightened one, what you feel we should talk about.

This isn't all that as impossible as you suggest. R1 is off on the pitch. His head is down and he's haulin' @$$ toward second. He hears the contact of the bat and the ball and looks up and see's it high in the air over the mound. He stops in his tracks, turns around and attempts to go back to first. F3 is now looking up at the ball and steps into his path back to first obstructing him causing him to fall. By the time he gets back to his feet BR is now on first base. F1 throws the ball to F6 and F6 miss-plays the ball letting it go into the outfield. F8 subsequently throws out R1 at second as he's just coming into the bag. Now you have to consider post-obstruction evidence and decide had there been no obstruction would R1 have reached second base safely. Your call, but it would be hard to sell a safe call in this situation if you didn't at least note the delayed dead ball obstruction. The out call is easy as this play panned out, but had something other than F1 simply making a good throw to force the runner and get the out, the safe call is going to be tough if you didn't call it.

I don't buy the argument that he cannot return toward a base he's been forced from. I agree that he and the BR cannot occupy that base, but the basepath belongs to him both ways until he's been put out.

Tim.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

"Please tell us, enlightened one, what you feel we should talk about.

This isn't all that as impossible as you suggest. R1 is off on the pitch. His head is down and he's haulin' @$$ toward second. He hears the contact of the bat and the ball and looks up and see's it high in the air over the mound. He stops in his tracks, turns around and attempts to go back to first. F3 is now looking up at the ball and steps into his path back to first obstructing him causing him to fall. By the time he gets back to his feet BR is now on first base. F1 throws the ball to F6 and F6 miss-plays the ball letting it go into the outfield. F8 subsequently throws out R1 at second as he's just coming into the bag."

[/B]I think most of us agree that there is very little possibility of this play actually happening. Even Rich agrees that it would take 13-14 year olds to be involved and I have yet to see one beat the baserunner to first on that type of play.

While most youth leagues use OBR based rules, most don't allow leadoffs on 60' bases. The hit and run is moot and the idea that the kid is fooled is absurd to anyone older than a freshman in high school.

The most pressing point that has been missed is that R1 is not entitled to protection going back to first. He mistakenly thought it was a fly ball and ran into the fielder who was standing away from the base. The onus is not on the fielder to get out of his way on something like this play. He should never expect the runner to return to the base! The collision is the fault of the runner. At that level, I don't call Obstruction on the fielder for the bonehead base running of R1. If the coach barks, I say, "Your runner ran into him coach. Where should F3 stand on that play? He is getting ready for the throw to first, not a returning runner! Go away before my head explodes."[/B]

[Edited by WhatWuzThatBlue on Jan 5th, 2006 at 11:18 PM]

[Rich Ives]

Originally posted by briancurtin

asinine plays like this are why people move on

Yep - lots of folks can't deal with the inexperience and undiciplined reactions of dealing with young, still learning children. Move on if you're in this category. Just recognize that there are many who like being part of the learning process - and it doesn't make them lesser people. That's why we have elementary school teachers and university professors. Both necessary. Neither a lesser part of the child's growth. Applies to sports too.

[DG]

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
The most pressing point that has been missed is that R1 is not entitled to protection going back to first. He mistakenly thought it was a fly ball and ran into the fielder who was standing away from the base.
[/B]

I don't think I missed this most pressing point. "R1 is not obstructed since he can not return to 1B, he is forced to 2B. R1 is out on the play."