tossing Edmonds?? It seemed obvious to me that Cuzzi blew the previous pitch which had been a strike all night... and was performing the classic 'make-up' call.

I know I know, professional umpires don't do make-ups... I don't believe it. I don't think it's intentional, it's just a matter of realizing you blew the last pitch, so the next pitch that's even close be a strike. For that matter, I thought he could've called a swinging strike... which would've taken the pressure off a bit.

Still, Cuzzi lost his cool a bit.. he shouldn't have tossed Edmonds. Edmonds is a classy guy who I've almost never seen argue with a call...

All that said, the Redbirds are choking it away yet again. Too old, too injured seems to be the theme this year.

oops sorry..
 

I didn't read down far enough,, I see it's already been discussed.

Well it is quite obvious that you "know" less about umpiring than you think. What is this, "I don't think it's intentional" bullcrap? If you had ANY clue whatsoever, you would know that if the umpire is thinking about the last pitch or any other pitch, their not getting ANY of them correct. Especially at the MLB level.

What is this subliminal unintentional disease you are talking about?

I am totally amazed how one's fingers can type thoughts that a normal mind couldn't even comprehend.!!!!!!!!!!!!

<i> Originally posted by jicecone </i>

<b> Well it is quite obvious that you "know" less about umpiring than you think. What is this, "I don't think it's intentional" bullcrap? If you had ANY clue whatsoever, you would know that if the umpire is thinking about the last pitch or any other pitch, their not getting ANY of them correct. Especially at the MLB level. </b>

Jicecone, it appeared to me that the strike call on the 3-1 pitch to Edmunds was INTENTIONAL. The reason I say that is that pitch didn't appear to be even questionable and Cuzzi was taking a lot of "crap" from LaRussa as well as some of the other Cardinal Players all game long. Also, LaRussa was shooting his mouth off about the umpiring the previous day. Apparently both LaRussa and Edmunds didn't get the message.

You would think that after Cuzzi threw out LaRussa and he called the 3-1 pitch to Edmunds a strike, that Edmunds would have got <i> "the message" </i> and knew what was going on and simply said nothing and get ready for the 3-2 pitch.

It's typical LaRussa blame everyone but himself and his players. The Cardinal hitters are 2 for a million with runners in scoring position.

Pete Booth

Oh come on now. Cuzzi had been calling that low strike the ENTIRE game. That's the call that everyone was complaining about. He missed ball three on Edmonds.. Wheeler (it WAS Wheeler wasn't it?) and Ausmus were obviously surprised that it wasn't called... then on ball four, he calls a strike that really wasn't close (not nearly as close as the calls that got LaRussa tossed) ... now you tell me, what was Cuzzi thinking? I think YOU hit it on the head when you said "If you had ANY clue whatsoever, you would know that if the umpire is thinking about the last pitch or any other pitch, their not getting ANY of them correct." Right. I agree... that was the problem.

So far as make-up calls go... can you truly tell me that they never happen? I've coached, played, and umpired for 35 years. Perhaps it's one of those things we all know happens... but we just don't like to talk about it.

A classy guy doesn't call an umpire the names Edmonds called Phil, nor does he call him female anatomy from the dugout.

I DESPISE the Yankees. But when it comes to arguing with umpires, Joe Torre is the epitome of class.

Cuzzi
 

How about when Cuzzi tossed LaRussa? First he yanks off his mask and looks for confrontation by yelling into the dugout, then when LaRussa comes out he wants to "do the admirable thing" and walk away and avoid confrontation. If anyone is able to split their TV screen, I think it would be interesting to see the pitches that led to the ejections of LaRussa and Edmonds. The two pitches were in the exact same spot. One was called a ball to Berkman and the other was called a strike on Edmonds. I am not saying that neither of them deserved to be tossed (because they did). I am just saying that both situations could have both been avoided if Cuzzi had had any consistency at all. After the first ejection, it was obvious that he was looking to eject anyone else. Let's just hope there is not a questionable fair/foul call down the right field line in game 5 tonight. Cuzzi just might take it upon himself to eject the entire dugout if they so much as ask him to get help.

ahhh, here we go.....

Re: Cuzzi
 

So LaRussa should just be allowed to scream, scream, scream from the dugout.

LaRussa had plenty of opportunity to shut his mouth, but didn't. Edmonds was asked to get back in the box at least twice and he didn't. Who's in charge in your world?

The pitches were not in the same spot. The pitch to Edmonds was clearly much closer to the plate than the one to Berkman was. Also, I would love to know how everyone here claims that Phil ran over like a bat out of hell and started yelling at LaRussa, without knowing what Tony said. We have no idea what kind of names/language came out of that dugout. Phil does. I highly doubt he's running around in the LCS looking for people to throw out.

My mistake
 

My mistake. Cuzzi called every pitch correctly in game 4. We can only hope that the same is done in game 5. I need to remove the name Coach from my signature so that my opinions won't be immediately ignored on this board.

[Edited by harmbu on Oct 17th, 2005 at 10:51 AM]

I disagree on the pitch location. I thought they were both up and in...

LaRussa needed to be tossed. In fact, I suspect that was his whole purpose in going out there. He was hoping to rattle Cuzzi and get the next call... which he did on ball three to Edmonds.

I think Cuzzi was a bit rattled... he blew the ball three call, and then blew the next pitch as well. Edmonds WAS stupid, and out of character as well, and after reading what he apparently said, deserved to be tossed. I think the Cardinals cannot believe that they are on the brink of elimination because they can't buy a hit in a critical situation... and are letting their frustration get the better of them.

And I apoligise for mentioning that I have been in and around the game for a number of years. Apparently that raises red flags with some of you other guys that have been in and around the game for a number of years.

Re: Re: Cuzzi
 

LaRussa was "warned" at least twice as well. Just before he was tossed, Cuzzi told him, "You're going to go" ... response from Tony ... "You're going to go" ... response from Tony ... Big Finger ... Tony runs out of the dugout.

Don't have a problem with "intentional" Peter, I have had to utilize that form of getting a message across myself, in some games.

My point, was the implication that umpires make calls because of some subliminal reason that no one can explain, as kcs_hiker was trying to imply here.

It's quite simple. The Angels had a bad series. The Cardinals are in the middle of having a bad series.

It doesn't happen often (I've never seen it) but the ALCS crew had a bad series. I can't comment on NLCS because yesterday was the only game I saw.

Bottom line is the Angels and Cardinals are still two of the best teams in baseball (any level). Based on what I've seen the White Sox are the best.

The ALCS crew are still 6 of the best umpires at all levels. They just had a bad series. It's a shame it was in the LCS, and may cost them in the future, but that is the bottom line.

Subliminal is your word not mine. I suggested that Cuzzi knew that he had missed the ball three call, and was making up for it on the next pitch. I mentioned that umpires are probably not even aware that they do that... else then they wouldn't do it.

You then called me clueless, and said that an umpire who thought about previous pitches wasn't going to get any of them right... I don't agree with the clueless part, but I agree with the second half of your statement. That's what I thought Cuzzi did... it's what it looked like he did. What's your explanation?

edited to add: after rereading your post, I wonder if you are suggesting that Cuzzi INTENTIONALLY called that pitch a strike so as to send a message? Kinda like our home-town Smitty calling slow-pitch who called a pitch over a batters head a strike and then said to him 'how do you like that' after the batter questioned strike two?

[Edited by kcs_hiker on Oct 17th, 2005 at 01:42 PM]

I am amazed that people think they can behave in any way they like because in their mind a bad call was made. LaRussa was totally in the wrong. First of all he did not have a good angle (how could he) at the pitch. He started yelling and screaming at the umpire about ball and strikes (a BIG NO NO). Then Edmonds then starts calling names and getting personal with the umpire (ANOTHER NO NO). Cuzzi gave both of them ample time to back down and they choose to pursue him even more. He did not just pull the trigger, he commented to give them a chance to back down. When they did not, they were run. I think he did a good job. No matter what you think about those pitches, he does not have to take that from them.

BTW, I am a big Cardinals fan. I think the umpire had every right to throw them out of the game. The Cardinals had a meltdown similar to what happen in the 85 World Series. Edmonds really should have been ashamed of himself; he might have got a hit to tie the game. Now he lets his team down and makes a teammate the bat when he was not prepared to hit. He started the count with a 3-2 count. Shame on Edmonds for getting thrown out of the game. He should have known better.

Peace

Subliminal is your word not mine. I suggested that Cuzzi knew that he had missed the ball three call, and was making up for it on the next pitch. I mentioned that umpires are probably not even aware that they do that... else then they wouldn't do it.

The dumbest thing any umpire can do from Little League to the Show is to do a "make up call". Now instead of having one team mad at you now both are made at you and are afraid of what you're going to do next! It's taught in Umpireing 101 don't even think about doing a "make-up call" These guys are the best of the best. But, even the best miss calls. Good calls bad calls are part of the game. Good teams know this and put it behind them and go on to the next play.

I love when people get down on the MLB umpires! Well to kcs_hiker and those who agree with him, let me ask you some questions.

Have you ever blown a call?

Have you ever second guessed yourself?

Now while you answer these questions let me add to them:

What level of ball do you call?

And when you blow a call or second guess yourself:

Are your spectators numbered on one hand or are you umpiring in from of millions?

As I thought, most of you have a hand full of people watching your games. Sometimes, the players out number the spectators, don't they?

Some of you only hear the groans of LL mommies and daddies. Some of us went a bit farther and officiate High School and NCAA.

The point is this. A very high percentage of us will never see an MLB field except to be a spectator at a game. You cannot compare your umpiring experiences to that of a MLB umpire in the hopes of judging him. They, the players and the Game itself are on a different plane then any of us could hope to be on.

Another thing, I don't know about you, but my satellite provider does not mike the dugout or home plate area, so how can any of you know what was really said. It seems that many of you rely on the announcers who are guessing themselves.

Do us all a favor, umpire your level and when you can do as good a job as an MLB umpire, go to school and let's see if you can make the grade.

I plan on doing exactly that when I get out of school :p

I don't know why Cuzzi called that pitch Strike Two on Edmonds. Clearly high and inside. Perhaps to send a message, perhaps a make-up call or he just missed it. Either way, Edmonds went too far and that's his responsibility.

But I do know this. The previous pitch (2-1) was an obvious strike that was called Ball Three. The catcher Ausmus quickly came up like he was going to throw to first base and Cuzzi seemed to lose his balance, stumbled a bit. I was really surprised that it was a ball and I was even more surprised that Fox didn't show the replay as part of the spectacle that followed.

JP

Absolutely have I blown calls and second guessed myself... but I get 50$ a game while Cuzzi makes 100k a year. And I'm not down on Cuzzi really. My comments are more in the nature of observations really. And as I said, LaRussa and Edmonds probably needed to be run... but as I also said, it seemed apparent to me that Cuzzi got a bit rattled and that made his 'errors' in judgement a bit more obvious.

Jeez... you don't need to be a famous chef to recognize bad food, nor do you need to be a MLB umpire to recognize bad umpiring... I imagine that Phil Cuzzi is probably being much harder on himself than any of us are.

If the best place to call balls and strikes was from a video monitor in the press box that's where the PU would be. The angle shown on TV is not the best one to judge balls and strikes. The don't call it "The best seat they have in the house but you have to stand" for nothing.

So it's ok for you to make a mistake,or miss a
call making $50 per game,while MLB umpires should
be perfect because of the money they make? I'm
glad I don't work for you in my day job.

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who noticed that.

Huh? That doesn't make sense.

It's not ok for me to miss a call at my level. Where did I say that? But if I miss a call it's because I'm an amateur umpire who doesn't go to school every year... and besides, I'm still human. What's a MLB's umpires excuse?

kcs_hiker, don't try to understand it, it's not intentional, your probably just trying to make up for a call you got right once. Nothing you can do about it, it just happens that way, I'm sure you understand that.

Huh? Ohhhhh I get it... you're still stuck on that subliminal thing. Cool, new word, huh? Been looking for a place to use it all week I bet.

Let me ask you seriously. Are you this much of an a** to everybody or is it just newer posters who say something that you disagree with? Course I notice that you never once tried to actually answer my point... preferring rather to insult and jeer... bet that works well in your umpiring world too.

Oh, I understood and answered your point alright. You just haven't realized it. And then, when the same type of logic was used towards you, you still failed to comprehend how absurd your original point really was.

apparently yes.