FED Rules Please.
Situation 1

B1 on first. F1 has his shoulder turned towards first during his prelimenary motions until he comes set. I call a balk right away. Right call or not? He did not actually turn his shoulders when he came set. On the contrary,his shoulders where already turned as he was coming set.

Situation 2

B1 on first and B3 on third. F1 taps his foot towards third and then goes to first. It looked strange to me but I didn't call it a balk. I think I should have called a balk because he really didn't step towards third; he just tapped his foot in a direction towards third before going to first.
Also, does he have to be off the rubber when he makes this third to first move? Does he actually have to throw to first after faking to third?

Situation 3
B1 on first begins to steal. While on the mound F1 turns his non pivot foot and body towards second but does not actually step towards second(He also does not fake a throw there). He then run towars B1. I called a balk because he did not step towards second or fake a throw there. He only did a jump-step turn towards second and then ran towards B1 with the ball in his hand, but actually didn't step towards the base. His foot and body just pointed in the direction of second. Is this considered a legal step or a balk?

Situation 4
B1 on first and B3 on third. B1 begins heading towards second. F1 seeing this, turns his non pivot foot and body towards second but does not fake a throw. I call a balk because he did not fake the throw. Am I right or wrong? Also, he really didn't step towards second, he just jumped and turned towards second. Would jumping and tuning in the direction of the bag without stepping towards it be considered a legal step towards the bag or a balk?

Situation 5

Finally, can F1 step and then fake a throw towards an occupied/unoccupied bag in an attempt to put out a runner or does he have to step and fake the throw at the same time?(I am assuming that he does have to fake a throw in order for a balk not to be called) Also, the coach said it is legal to step towards the runner who is the act of stealing. He is wrong isn't he?

[Edited by Gre144 on Apr 28th, 2001 at 09:27 PM]

Situation 1

It sounds like F1 is standing in an open stance meaning his foot is slightly towards firt so he can see the runner without turning his shoulder. This is fine. From there he can come set either open or closed (his lead foot towards the plate). Once he closes his stance he can't turn his shoulder open again. If he does it's a balk.

Situation 2

The tap towards third and back to first seems like a balk. From your description it doesn't sound like he broke the rubber. I don't have a FED book handy but in OBR 8.05 note it says he can't,while in contact with the rubber, step toward third and in the same motion turn back to first and throw there. If he makes the same type move but breaks the rubber then he's fine.

Situation 3

If he turned toward second and then ran toward the runner he had to land and that would have to be in the direction of second. He doesn't have to make a fake at all. This sounds like nothing to me.

Situation 4

See three. Here again in the turn he has to put his foot down somewhere and it sure sounds like toward second to me. He doesn't have to make the fake.

Situation 5

This question is a little ambiguous. If you have R1 and he breaks toward second the pitcher may turn and throw to second to make a play. I'm not sure what you mean by stepping toward the runner is.

I hope I've understood what you were asking and if not try another explaination.

Situation 1
Are you saying that F1 can actually start off with his left shoulder directly pointed towards first at the point that he comes set?

Situation 2
What does it mean to break the rubber? Does it mean that he can't have any part of his foot on the rubber when he fakes the throw to third? It always appears to me, looking from home plate, that the pitcher has at least part of his foot on the rubber when he does the third-to first pick off move.

Situation 4

According to Fed 6-2-4b he has to either throw or feint a throw to the base. Am I misunderstanding this?

Situation 5
What I mean is as follows. B2 breaks towards second. He is halfway between first and second when F1 steps directly towards him. Is this step legal since it is towards the runner and not the bag?

[Edited by Gre144 on Apr 28th, 2001 at 10:14 PM]

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Situation 1

Are you saying that F1 can actually start off with his left shoulder directly pointed towards first at the point that he comes set?
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Situation 1

Actually by open I mean his foot is slightly closer to first than normal. This makes it easier to see first. Imagine his lead foot directly in line with the plate. Now figure how much he has to open his shoulder to see the runner and move that angle down to his foot. It's usually only about 6 inches off line.

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Situation 2

What does it mean to break the rubber? Does it mean that he can't have any part of his foot on the rubber when he fakes the throw to third? It always appears to me, looking from home plate, that the pitcher has at least part of his foot on the rubber when he does the third-to first pick off move.

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Situation 2

In the normal third to first move the fake to third is enough to pull his foot off the rubber. Then the move to first is done by a pitcher that has turned himself into an infielder hence no balk. I believe he can make a good fake to third and in a seperate move throw to first while still engaged. If he stays engaged he has to throw to first, he can't fake.
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Situation 4

According to Fed 6-2-4b he has to either throw or feint a throw to the base. Am I misunderstanding this?
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Situation 4

No, but if watch a major league pitcher many times his feint is nothing more than stepping over the rubber towards second but no actual move with the ball.
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Situation 5
What I mean is as follows. B2 breaks towards second. He is halfway between first and second when F1 steps directly towards him. Is this step legal since it is towards the runner and not the bag?
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Situation 5

No I would say he would have to break the rubber then play chase the runner.

Situation 1 is legal. His front foot does not have to be directly in front of the rubber, it can be in an open stance. (Casebook 6.1.3A)

Situation 2 if he steps toward third and then without stepping off the rubber, he must throw to first base. If in the fake to third he comes off the rubber, he is then a fielder and may fake or throw to first. If you consider the initial step toward third and the step toward first to be one continuous motion it is a balk.

Situation 3 - (Casebook 6.1.3I) jump turn where F1 lands with non pivot foot closer to second than the pivot foot is legal. The jump turn is considered a step. Once he does this he becomes a fielder and may make any play.

Situation 4 - I don't believe an actual fake is required, the step is all that's required. I believe the step and the non-throw is considered a feint.

Situation 5 - The step is required before the throw. A throw followed by a step is a balk.

The pitcher cannot while in contact with the rubber step anywhere but toward a base. However, for practical purposes, wherever he steps is closer to one base than another. If he is closer to first base and fakes (does not throw), then that is a balk. If he steps at a runner closer to home and does not throw, then that is a balk.

Situation 1

In situation 1, I was wondering if it is ok that he has his shoulders turned towards first base as he comes set. He does not turn his shoulder after he has come set but actually has it turned at the moment he comes set. Is this ok?

Situation 2.

Could you tell me why it would be a balk if his step towards third and then towards first in one continuous motion? In other words, what would you say to the coach?

Situation 4- I know it says in the rule book that you must make a feint but I don't belive the term feint is ever defined. What would constitute a legal feint?

Yes it is okay if the positioning of his shoulders is not straight. If he makes a motion with his shoulders, that constitutes a fake and is considered a balk.

The pitcher must step directly to the base he is throwing to. If he starts to step toward third and without stopping he changes direction and steps to first, then he did not step directly. If he steps to third and stops, then he can step toward first and throw. In summary, for each step he makes, the step must be directly to one base without changing direction.

He is not required to take a big step, so if he makes a little step toward third, his front foot lands on the ground, he has legally stepped toward third. If he then steps toward first and throws, then that is legal.

I would tell the coach "He did not step directly to the base". If the coach persisted: "He did not step directly to the base." There is no need to elaborate, just continue to repeat.

I would consider a feint to be legally stepping toward a base and then not throwing to that base. I would not require any hand pumping.

Don't worry about it if you made any mistakes, you learn from it and you make fewer mistakes next time. If you know the coach and he rags you about it, just admit, hey on this one I was right, but the other one, I blew it.

Thanks. Just to clarify- Are you saying that it is ok for a right handed pitcher to have his shoulder completely pointed towards first base as he comes set?

The requirement for the set position is that the pivot foot be on (or in front of and touching) the rubber and the non-pivot foot be in front of a line running through the front of the rubber. It doesn't say anything about the position of the shoulders.

The position you describe is legal, but F1 will be so slow to the plate that almost anyone will be able to steal

The open set is fine if he starts open. If he takes his signs closed to the plate then he can't then open to first and set. He may start open and set open or start open and se closed. Either way is fine.

Do you know where it says this in Fed rules? Your statement seems to contradict what every has told me which is that the positioning of the shoulders has nothing to do with a balk only the feet do. It seems to me from the majority opinion that the pitcher can take his sign from a closed position then turn his shoulder completely towards first until he comes set. Am I misunderstanding what everyone is saying? Thanks,

Greg

It's the other way around. You can be open and stay open. You be open and close on the set. You be closed but you have to stay closed. If you watch Mike Messina pitch he starts closed and as he is coming set he opens to first and closes on the set. This legal in OBR. It's a balk in FED. Hopes this clears it up if not ask again. I'm not noted for my writing skills.

Michael, while my personal beliefs agree with you, I am posting to indicate that in North Texas (at least 3 Fed Chapters in Dallas Metro Area), this move of opening and closing the shoulder is TRAINED as allowable provided the opening and closing is done during the stretch motion.

Although I don't agree with the training, at least 300 umps total in these associations do not call it. I accept it as trained and accepted practice in this area.

Just a note,

Steve

Our state interpreter up until this year has been on the rules committee and he says no. Far be from me to correct the Texas guys but I have to go by what they tell us here. So I guess you can do it the way you thought and if anybody questions it national says no.

What I said was that the position of the shoulders is not illegal. Turning the shoulders is illegal. The word turn is used as a verb and requires physical turning motion, not just positioning.

If the pitcher is bent over for signs and in standing up his shoulder moves, then that in itself is not illegal. As mentioned, in many instances, a subtle repositioning of the shoulder during the stretch is usually not considered a fake and is not penalized. Any sharp (quick, sudden) turning motion of the shoulder during the stretch should be penalized.

Any shoulder turning motion before the stretch or after coming set should be penalized.

As you get into the more subtle areas, your judgment becomes the determination. When in doubt, consider deception, is the pitcher deceiving the runner?

I am more confused now than before I asked the question. I guess my question is this. Can the shoulder be pointed towards first and stay pointed towards first at the the time the pitcher comes set? Assume that when he is set, his shoulder is completely towards first but at no time after coming set does his shoulder, which is pointed towards first, turn in a direction that would cause his shoulder to turn even more towards first.

I think I want to know if his shoulder can turn towards first and remain positioned towards first at the time he comes set.

Greg

[Edited by Gre144 on May 10th, 2001 at 09:38 PM]

Yes if his moves his foot a little so he doesn't have to turn his shoulder to get there. He opens his left foot enough he may look at first without turning his body too. From there he may set in the same position or bring his left foot back over so when he sets he faces the plate.

You sound like me when I started. I was an outfielder what did I know about pitching. I really had to work on balk identification. Not that I was looking to nit-pick balks but more so I could see what to call and what to let go.

[Edited by Michael Taylor on May 10th, 2001 at 11:01 PM]

Can it be said that the front shoulder should be square towards home plate(the left shoulder facing home plate for a right handed pitcher) before, during and after the the stretch?

No. How much simpler could it be?

Well Bob, it seems like most people are saying, including you, that you can't turn your shoulders- and the only way to point your shoulder towards first base is to turn it towards first base. If turning the shoulders is illegal then pointing your shoulder towards first, which requires you to turn it in that direction, would be a balk wouldn't it? The only time that the front shoulder does not turn is when it is pointed directly towards home as the pitcher comes set.

Maybe I'm looking into it to deep as you have said to me before. Deception is probably the key factor in determining a balk with a shoulder move.

Thanks

Greg

[Edited by Gre144 on May 11th, 2001 at 02:11 PM]

Basicly the shoulder can be open as I think everybody agrees on. What is a balk is when the shoulder faces home either in preliminary,during the set or after he is set and the opens it to first. Just remember if he starts closed he stays closed. Anything else there is no deception. Try to find a copy of "See a Balk, Call a Balk" it may make it easier. It's hard to explain without visual aids.

[Edited by Michael Taylor on May 11th, 2001 at 04:11 PM]

Michael, I respectfully think that Mr. Jekins would disagree with you.

Greg

LOOK!!!
 

IF HE'S STATIONARY ON THE RUBBER AND TURNS HIS SHOULDER, BALK HIM!

IF HE'S MOVING AND TURNS HIS SHOULDER, NO BALK!

I don't know if I could explain this any easier.

Will


[Edited by badbamaump on May 11th, 2001 at 03:04 PM]

If you are saying turning as he comes up set as in Mesina this is illegal in FED only. College or OBR it's fine. This is according to my state interpreter who was on the rules committee. Personnally I don't mess with it much unless somebody complains. It tough to expect pitchers to change what's legal everywhere else they pitch.

EXACTLY!!!
 

Mike,
I've heard tell that in some places they'll balk for the "Mussina" move.... I've never called it, never heard a coach say anything about it either.

I've got enough crap to look for in a FED game without adding this to it! lol

Will

Re: LOOK!!!
 

This is the explanation that I have been looking for!! Does everyone agree that the above quote is correct? If so, then I completely understand now.

Thanks,

Greg

Re: Re: LOOK!!!
 

Yes it's as good as any. I agree with him about having enough to watch in a FED game.