Three Man Mechanics:

My partners & I where discussing the benefits of standing opposite the pitchers throwing hand while in the either B or C position while using the Three Man Mechanics. I have always been instructed to set your self in B or C, regardless of the pitcher. The primary benefit that was described to me is that you will lessen your visibility from the batter because you are not standing directly behind the pitcher throwing arm. I am not sure I understand with this benefit and seems to me with runners on second and if you are in the B slot, then making the call at third on a steal (or any other banger) will put in a poor position to make the right call.

What are your thoughts/ or experiences with this?

Thank you


[Edited by EMD on Aug 3rd, 2005 at 11:18 AM]

throwing arm doesn't matter. What matters the batter. If a right handed batter, you should be in B. You have check swing responsibility. With leftie, it is your call, I prefer B because that seems "natural" and I am comfortable there. I am also in better position to handle a call at 1B.

3 man mechanics, as taught today, have nothing to do with the batter or the number of outs.

No runners or R3 only -- A/D
R1 only -- A/deep C
R1+R2 -- A/C
R1+R2+R3 -- A/C
R2 only -- deep B/D
R2+R3 -- deep B/D

To make it simple, anytime there is a runner at first base, the first base umpire is in A.

CCA gives U3 an option of B or C with R1 only.

Sure. I still can't figure out the original post, though.

<i> Originally posted by EMD </i>

<b> Three Man Mechanics:

My partners & I where discussing the benefits of standing opposite the pitchers throwing hand while in the either B or C position while using the Three Man Mechanics. I have always been instructed to set your self in B or C, regardless of the pitcher. The primary benefit that was described to me is that you will lessen your visibility from the batter because you are not standing directly behind the pitcher throwing arm. </b>

IMO, the advent of the METAL bat has a lot to do with whether to stand in "B" or "C". If F1 lost a yard or 2 on his fastball and the batters are starting to pull the ball more I stand Opposite the batter's power alley, meaning if there is a lefty up then position "C" conversely position "B" for a righty.

I have had some close calls with the metal bats. You simply do not have as much time to react when there's a SHOT off a metal bat vs. wood. You are also in a "deeper" position when the particpants use metal as opposed to wood.

In Summary: the PBUC manual and other professional manuals on three person mechanics are based on the participants using wood vs. metal.


Pete Booth

To "jumpmaster" Alan Roper:

In 3-Man, the umpire in position B does NOT have checked swing responsibilities in any case. The umpire on the line, regardless of a righty or lefty, is the one who has that responsibility.

As for being in "B" or "C" on 3-man . . . either of those positions, as well as most other movements and positions, are predicated on balls going to the outfield; not for possible pick-offs or plays at a base. Whenever U2 "goes out", everything reverts to 2-man as far as the bases go anyhow.

The preference for "B" or "C" is indeed dictated by the pitcher. You sure wouldn't want to get nailed by a pick-off attempt with a pitcher turning into you.

Jerry

That really depends on the crew.

To Rich Fronheiser:

With two out, and runners at R2 or R2-R3, the umpire positions should be A/C; not B/D. At higher levels, defensive infielders are taught to automatically make the 3rd out at 1st base. It would also be very unusual for an attempted "sacrifice" or bunt situation with 2-outs. Hence the logic behind putting U3 inside. By using the A/C coverage, your crew is in much better position for outfield and the expected infield play.

Jerry

Luke,
When you say "that depends on the crew", I suppose there are those groups that would want to do things their own way; but I'm not sure why. Unless they always and only work together, they'd each be at a disadvantage when working with two other umpires who go by the written mechanics.

I'm just curious on why one specific crew would "buck the system"? Wouldn't that open you up to criticism by evaluators and/or coaches that know what the proper mechanics should be?

Furthermore, assuming the man/woman in the "B" or "C" position has responsibilities for a balk call (from the waist down) and for the runners on base (for possible interference/obstruction), wouldn't making him responsible for checked swings interfere at least a little bit with those responsibilities?


Jerry

With R2, less than two. How close does U3 satnd to second base when in the C position. I was taught to keep my heals on the dirt and toes in grass +/-10' from second toward thrid.

When I am in this postion it seems uncomfortable. Is there a better position?

EMD,
With less than 2 out and an R2, U3 should be in the "D" position. U2 would be in the "B" position. (Or "C" if he prefers).

In any case, whenever an umpire is in either "B" or "C", it is quite acceptable to have both feet on the infield grass and ready to make a call from the cutout area of the bases.

Jerry

Your right about the position of U2 or U3 and base responsiblities. The point of my question is location in respect to second base while in the C position.

Thanks

Rich,
When you say "as taught today", it depends on what level you work. In college baseball, we use the CCA mechanics which follows what you wrote except with R1 only and a RIGHT handed batter, U3 can work in deep C or deep B. If a left handed batter, U3 must position himself in deep C (because he would have check swing resposibility)

In PRO ball (at least in the Northern League), with R1, we can position ourselves in deep B or deep C because check swing responsibility always goes to the umpire on the line (umpire in the middle never has check swing).

Pro ball 3 man mechancs are situational. For example, if there are two outs, U1 will always be in A regarless of where the runners are on base (ie, R2 & R3, 2 outs - U3 would be in C and U1 is in A). Also, if there are 2 outs and a 3-2 count(where the runner(s) are going on the pitch), the plate umpire will not rotate up to third (he will stay home) and the base umpires will reverse rotate.

CCA mechanics 3 man mechanics are very standardized because umpires are not working with the same guys all year. Pro 3 man has more variations and is more flexible because you work with the same crew all year. Hopefully, I didn't complicate things further.

With a runner on 2nd, isn't the umpire in "C" now in the way of the runner's line of vision with the pitcher when leading off?

NOt any more than the umpire in the same position with a two-umpire crew.

EMD -- the positioning of BU (2-umpire) and U3 (3-umpire) is the same with R2 -- "regular" C, not Deep C. Deep C, or Deep B is used with R1 only.

Jerry -- The CCA does not suggest changing positions based on the number of outs. Some books do suggest this, however. Also, I'm curious as to which published book recommends going to the umpire on the line for a check swing. I don't recall reading this (although I've heard of it).

Yes, we may also be blocking the shortstop's view of the plate. I position myself where I feel I need to be and if I'm blocking the runner or the SS view, I will take a step or two in either direction so that "everyone is happy"

Bob,
Our Instructions to Umpires packet for the Northern League listed this mechanic. I believe Afilliated ball uses the same mechanic at the AA and AAA levels.

Please show me this in the CCA manual. Not saying there isn't more than one way to do things, but your post suggests that (just as mine may have, as well).

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Aug 3rd, 2005 at 07:48 PM]

Please show me this in the CCA manual. Not saying there isn't more than one way to do things, but your post suggests that (just as mine may have, as well).
[/QUOTE]

Rich,
I don't mean to speak for Jerry but judging from his posts, he seems to follow the PRO 3 Man Mechanics, not CCA (College Mechanics). As someone pointed our previously, CCA does not change its positioning according to outs/count etc.

I saw a AA game last night, and U3 was in deep B every time for R1 only. Looked a little weird to me, all the umpires on one side of the diamond.

MB,
With R1 only, I prefer deep B as well because it gives you an angle for steal play swipe tags. The only time I will move to deep C with R1 only is when there are two outs and a 3-2 count. In this particular situation, the PU signals he's staying home and the base umpires signal reverse rotation. Moving over to deep C helps me stay ahead of R1 in case he goes from first to third on a base hit.

Let me stress that this is a PRO 3 man mechanic and NOT a CCA mechanic.

The higher the level of baseball, the more likely I am to work in deep B with R1 only. The swipe tag advantage, mentioned by Sal (and I think Bob Jenkins and I have talked about it) is undeniable.

Looks strange, i guess, but the coverages are completely unchanged.

Sounds right to me. But some people feel the need to reinvent the wheel.. lol

With R2 and R3 having U2 in A makes no sense. If something were to happen, U2 in B makes better sense as then all bases and runners are covered in the event of something wierd happening. You have 2 runners "surrounded by 3 blues. Much better situation.

I also do not care for adjusting based on out/batter. U2 should be in either A or B and U3 in either C or D depending on the situation.

To Rich and Sal:

You're correct, Sal. You and I are talking PBUC (Pro) mechanics. (Regarding where the field umpires are positioned, which is "situational" dependent. Also for going to the "man on the line" for checked swings.)

I understand that CCA and FED have somewhat different mechanics for their officials. So, not to be argumentative,it really depends on what level of ball you're officiating and what Umpire Manual you're referring to when speaking of mechanics and positioning.

The WBUA (www.wbua.org)utilizes the PBUC mechanics, and is what we teach our officials.

Jerry

Personally, I'm happier with CCA mechanics with lower level ball. More "stuff" happens on the bases, even with 2 outs, and it makes more sense to have the umpires in B and D with R2+R3 than A and C.

As long as we are all (on the same crew, that is) singing from the same hymnsheet....

Jim,
Nobody here is reinventing the wheel. Jerry and I are talking about two different types of 3 man mechanics.

1. PBUC or PRO 3 Man - Situational mechanics with more advanced rotations. Ideal for higher levels of baseball with more experienced umpires who perhaps work the three man system throughout the year or are assigned with the same partners/crew for the season

2. CCA or College 3 Man - Standandized mechanics with basic positioning and rotations. Ideal for all levels of amateur baseball and for umpires that mainly work the two man system except for post season tournaments/playoff type assignments or who have different partners with varying degrees of experience

Both systems are excellent however, I would recommend most umpires learn the CCA 3 Man Mechanics first before trying any of the PRO 3 Man variations. Just my opinion

This is the way I learned it. I call this "1st base preferred". I work one tournament a year with a group of umpires who learned it differently, and I call their method "3rd base preferred". They like to call it "keeping an umpire ahead of the runner".

No runners or R3 only -- A/D
R1 only -- A/deep C
R1+R2 -- B/D
R1+R2+R3 -- B/D
R2 only -- deep B/D
R2+R3 -- deep B/D

It's a subtle difference, but I adjust because it's easier for me to adjust than for them to do so (six of us working two fields over 4 days).

I know what you are saying Sal. Was just being kind of sarcastic in the reinventing the wheel comment. Rereading it, it didnot come off to well that way.. As said before Lah Meh..
I prefer the CCA mechanics myself. Fun part is we have a league around here that uses 3 man for the end of season City Championships. This is a little kid league. You should see the 3 man mechanics trying to be used when calling 3rd grade with the "no leading off, cannot come off the bag until ball leaves pitchers hand or else you are out" rule. I get a headache just thinking about it.

Hmmm,
 

So Jerry, your "upper level of ball", does that occur at your fantasy camps or in the baseball games played by women?

I think it is great that you teach NAPBL mechanics but how many umpires are in your group?





[Edited by Tim C on Aug 5th, 2005 at 09:49 AM]

This is old-timer thinking and requires one umpire to call both halves of a DP while the other base umpire watches.

This is old-timer thinking and requires one umpire to call both halves of a DP while the other base umpire watches. [/B][/QUOTE]Yes, I know. But I play along.

They had another mechanic I did not like. I got crossed up the first day on a banger at 1B. I'm in A with R1, hit and run, ball goes to 3B man, who throws to 1b for the banger, R1 rounds 2B and heads for 3B during the play sine he was on the run already. I look up and PU is near 3B. Ball gets by 3B man, R1 heads for home, and there is nobody there, so I start for home. Luckily he scored easily. After the game we discussed. "That's the rotation, my PU says". I say "I can see you going to 3B and me going home on a base hit, but on this play you want me to call a banger at 1B, while you are making your way to 3B, and then you want me to hustle 120 feet or so to home, while U3 in C, has been made into a spectator after R1 rounds 2B."

With R1 only and a ball hit in the infield, the PU does NOT rotate. U3 would take R1 into third base and PU stays home. This is a standard mechanic for both CCA and PRO 3 Man and 2 man as well.

Hmmm,
 

No official document says to rotate on balls that do not leave the infield.

Re: Hmmm,
 

Tim,
With R1 only (and R1 & R3 as well)We do NOT rotate on balls that do not leave the infield. Am I missing something here??

Re: Hmmm,
 

huh, huh. rotate on balls...wouldn't that be painful?

***end my Beavis moment****

Re: Re: Hmmm,
 

I think you are misreading what Tee wrote.

Tee is saying that it is not correct to rotate when the ball does not leave the infield.

Yep,
 

LDUB:

I was trying to post agreement with the non-rotation syndrom as defined in DG's post (which he also did not agree with the rotation) --

$hit, as I write this it gets worse and worse.

DON'T ROTATE IFFIN' THE BALL DOES NOT LEAVE THE INFIELD!

I said I did not like that rotation... We discussed afterwards and did not do this anymore for the rest of the tournament.

One thing that is certain - working 3-man, you MUST know what your partners are doing. I give it an extra 10 minutes pregame if working with ANYONE I've not worked with before. There are many things that people have learned over time that may differ from what you are used to, regardless of whether your way is "right" or "wrong".

3-man mechanics can look EXTREMELY beautiful to anyone who knows what they are seeing... if everyone's on the same page. They can also look EXTREMELY awful if anyone screws up.

The one thing that should never happen is for one of the 3 to get "crossed up". Pregame is imperative, and cover EVERYthing.

Agreed. We had pregame, and this particular "rotation" was not discusssed, and it did not dawn on me that it needed to be because I have never rotated to the plate from 1B after a banger. Two weeks later I worked a state tournament with the same PU and 4 guys I had not worked with. I brought it up at the pre-tournament umpires meeting and we all got on the same page. U1 would not be expected to cover home after a play at 1B. PU has the plate, and U2 has 2nd and 3rd.