Situation: R2 and R1, no out. BR hits a chopper to F6, R2 running on the hit ball. F6 chooses to throw to F4 who relays on to 1st. F3 stretches in the direction of the base umpire for the ball. BR is called out, double play.

Coach and fans are yelling that the F1 pulled his foot off the bag. Right after the play, coach from defensive team yells from the bench for the BU to appeal to the PU.

Considering the get it right mentality along with fact that the PU has responsibilities for interference at second after the out and for the runner at third, do you ask for help?

I had a situation like this in a game this year where I was the PU. My partner called the BR safe, which got the coach yelling about a pulled foot. Partner told the coach he was 100% sure the foot did not come up (from my view he was absolutely correct). Coach comes up to me after the inning and asks what I saw...I told him I couldn't say anything then because my partner didn't ask, but even if he had F3 held the bag.

What I guess I'm saying is if the BU is 100% sure he's right, don't ask. If he thinks there's a legitimate gripe, he can ask. Asking doesn't hurt if he thinks there's a case- the PU can always say he had the play at third. It's probably better not to ask unless you're sure your partner had a clear view of the play. If he's distracted at all by the play at 2nd or R2, I would not ask.

JMO.

I agree with that. The ump doesn't need to check if they felt they were right.Mattmets makes a really good point.

Scottyman that's the first time anyone's said that to me thanks a lot hehe

no.

I am 100% that his foot was on the bag. I sneak a quick peek at my partner who has made a fist with his right hand at pocket level. I bang the out.

I am not going to go to my partner just because a coach asked me to.

doesnt sound like 100% to me if you have to get a glance of what your partner thinks before calling the out.

i could be wrong, but it looks to me like you invisibly went to your partner.

My first response would be, "Please don't yell at me from the bench, Coach." When he comes out, I thank him and ask him if he has a question. If all this goes smoothly, I will confer with my partner privately and change the call if I missed a pulled foot or swipe tag.

Guys,

Lets quit tiptoeing around the bushes here, because that is exactly how it will be perceived.

"Partner told the coach he was 100% sure the foot did not come up (from my view he was absolutely correct). Coach comes up to me after the inning and asks what I saw...I told him I couldn't say anything then because my partner"

You just sold your partner down the drain because it sounds like you want to tell him more but your partner already made a call and you don't want to say anything.

How about, "coach, he made the correst call."

" I am 100% that his foot was on the bag. I sneak a quick peek at my partner." Why if your 100%?


Two weeks ago I did a American Legion game and I had a play at first. I was coming over from the "C" position and didn't get in a good position for a pulled foot. "Out!" First base coach, "he is off the bag," I immeaditely ask my partner " Tony, was he on the bag". Partner, "No he was not." "Safe"

This took all of one second and happen so fast that everyone knew we got the call correct. Not one word was said and the game proceeded nicely. No secret signals no beating around the bush. We changed a call smoothly because our presentation was good.

This wasn't about a "get it Right mentality." It was all about doing the best we could, in the most professional manner we knew how.

"100% sure the foot did not come up". So I am confused.

But, if I am BU and call him out, it's because I'm sure and no amount of "ask the PU" will convince me otherwise. If, and it's big IF, I have an out if F1 has his foot on the bag, I might ask the PU. I have not asked lately, and only been asked once this year when I was PU, and I rang him up.

Of course you don't ask for help. The correct thing to do is just stand there. If the PU saw something, he will yell out saying "Do you want to ask me anything about that play?"

<i> Originally posted by Kaliix </i>

<b> Situation: R2 and R1, no out. BR hits a chopper to F6, R2 running on the hit ball. F6 chooses to throw to F4 who relays on to 1st. F3 stretches in the direction of the base umpire for the ball. BR is called out, double play.

Coach and fans are yelling that the F1 pulled his foot off the bag. Right after the play, coach from defensive team yells from the bench for the BU to appeal to the PU.

Considering the get it right mentality along with fact that the PU has responsibilities for interference at second after the out and for the runner at third, do you ask for help? </b>

The answer is as follows:

If you as BU are going to ask for help, then DO NOT wait for the coach to ask, simply say John did he have the bag BEFORE you make the call.

If you as BU are NOT going to ask for help, then DO NOT meaning even if coach asks you to, stick with your call.

Once you start asking for help AFTER the coach requests it, then on every other close play the coach will want you to get help and if you do it once then you will be doing it all game long.

Remember in a 2 person Crew the PU might not be in position to help you out. For example; in your play you said hit and run and we had R1/R2. After the "Normal" responsibilities of the PU are complete (meaning call the pitch; Fair Foul), the PU's job is to watch for the interference on the part of R1 at second. In addition, suppose r2 (now r3 because of the hit and run) darts for home.

If there is only R1, the PU for the most part will be able to aid you, but once we have multiple runners, responsibilities change so do not hang your parter "out to dry"

Side Note: This get it right at all cost theory deals with major league baseball where they have 4 umpires and also have to answer to the TV personnel because of the constant replays. Most of us amateurs do not have to worry about that and as mentioned there are only 2 of us.

Pete Booth

:D:D:D

actually, Pete has nailed this, I think. I dont think its really a 'secret signal' but if Im the PU and in front of the plate when the call at 1B is made, if I have nothing (possible) to add then I turn away and head back to the plate. Thats as good a sign as any that I saw what the BU saw.

[Edited by LMan on Aug 2nd, 2005 at 09:57 AM]

Sorry Pete, nothing personnal but, this is getting to be like the old saying "if you masterbate to much, you will go blind."

A wifes tale, a baseball myth.

When one becomes experienced enough to handle these situations in a professional manner, then contary to the opinion of the "internet boys," it can be handled in a manner that DOES NOT, entertain further questions.

As much as officials on this forum want to convince others that there should NEVER, be a time that you don't see the pulled foot, well I got some good land to sell in Florda. It happens more time that way then, the right way. Even after we have discussed it in the pre-game.

$hit Happens and WE ALL know it does. So instead of consistently trying to teach others how to be out right ARROGANT, why don't we teach people how to deal with the real world events, when they happen. We keep telling officials that if you don't ask before you make the call, then it's too late. Horse$$it. If you can learn how to handle the situation even after you didn't ask, then good for you, your learning. And contrary to popular belief you will also be much more respected then you think.

"Coach, what's your problem, the fact that we changed the call or we got it right?"

Sorry Peter, 95% of the leagues I work appreciate the officials that take the time to get the calls correct in these situations. The other 5% wouldn't care one way or the other.

Yesterday's, arrogant official with an attitude is dying off fast. Let's get on board here.

I (and the umpires that work for me) will only go to partner if A) the coach says something that makes us think, "Huh... maybe I did miss that", B) I am sure partner did not have other duties and was probably looking at the same play I was.

Being straightlined IS one of those times unless I could clearly see the foot and the bag.

If I'm 100% (whether due to seeing it myself or seeing the double-secret-super-signal from partner), I will not go to partner just to appease a coach.

<i> Originally posted by jicecone </i>

<b> We keep telling officials that if you don't ask before you make the call, then it's too late. Horse$$it. </b>

That's not the point. The point is this:

If you as BU are unsure, then INITIATE the asking. Do not wait for the coach to ask you. Also, keep in mind that the PU will NOT always be able to help you.

Also, Umpires and Coaches see things differently.

My advice is this and it has aided me thus far.

SELL the CALL.

For what it's worth this is a topic that could go on Forever as there is no real RIGHT or WRONG answer.

Pete Booth

SELL the CALL.

I agree.

I had one where the guy clearly missed 3rd on his way home. I was doing home and third in the game;however because there was a play at home,i had to stay home. The other team challenged the play and threw to 3rd. My partner clearly saw it and made the call,out. The coach of the team that it happened to couldn't believe he saw it and not me. So, he though i should make the call and overrule my partner since it was my base. I told him i had to stay at home and didn't see it and that my partner did.

Not sure if this is related to what we are talking about,but i guess it is because the coach wanted my partner to check with me,and me make the call...

I don't think I know what that means, "I was doing home and third in the game."

If you were PU for this game, and there was a play at home, a play at 3rd base is BU's call - he called it properly, and if there was anyone needing to ask anything, it would be BU coming to you, and then BU making the call.

Coach - "Hey Blue, he pulled his foot, you need to check with your partner!"

If I'm 100% sure I've got it right, my answer is

Me - "Coach, in my judgement..... "

If I'm 100% sure that my partner was not in position to watch the play, my answer is

Me - "Coach, in my judgement..... "

Once you say "in my judgement", that's it! Any more discussion is arguing a judgement call and a 1 way ticket to the black-top pavillion. Just make sure that you are not BS'ing everyone and you were in good position. Above all, don't lie about it.



[Edited by ozzy6900 on Aug 2nd, 2005 at 01:17 PM]

mcrowder,

We Generally do games with 2 umps,and in this case the kid that didn't touch third was going to come home,and it was already a close play and if i had been over at third seeing if he touch i would have been really bad out of position thus probably blowing the call. My base ump and i agreed that if there was a play at home i would stay and he would cover third if needed,and he kept his eye on it,even though there was no play. He was on the short stop side of second which put him in a good position to see it. Generally I would call third if the play ended there,but in this case the runner was coming home so i stayed at the plate to call the close play.

Hopefully i made it clearer,if not I appologize..

adapted from ozzy's post