Balk/No Balk in Padres Game 7-20
 

Saw this on ESPN this morning, and could not believe it.

The Padres pitcher was in the windup position with a runner on third. R3 feinted the steal of home. SD RH pitcher steps off with his pivot foot first and throws home in an attempt to retire the runner. R3 did not go, but retreated to third. Umps call a balk and send the runner home. Good call, right?

Then the offensive coach comes out to argue, and the umps get together and reverse the call, placing the runner back on third! The ESPN anchor said that the pitcher couldn't balk while standing off the rubber (lol) and that's why they sent the runner back.

It looked CLEARLY to me, in real time, that the SD pitcher made motions naturally associated with his pitching motion (8.05g) after stepping off. They spot-shadowed his feet showing that he in fact stepped off first, then threw home. I didn't know what the balk was for until they spot-shadowed his feet and slowed it down - however, it looked just like he was throwing a pitch.

That's a balk to me, as it looked just like he was throwing a pitch.

What do you guys think?

Re: Balk/No Balk in Padres Game 7-20
 

All he did was quickly step off and throw home. He didnt make a motion associated with his pitching motion. He is allowed to throw home to retire the runner.

Re: Balk/No Balk in Padres Game 7-20
 

I don't think so. Sounds like he disengaged properly. What am I missing?

Did he immediately drop his hands to his sides?

He threw to a base, why would/should he?

The rule book states that he should. Doesn't matter if he throws to a base the hands are supposed to be dropped first.

That is not correct.

shaka,

You are correct that the rule book says a pitcher must drop his hands to his sides after disengaging. Although the rule book doesn't say this, it <b>means</b> he must drop his hands before re-engaging the rubber.

From the BRD:

JM

Could the balk call have been for throwing to an unoccupied base, with PU giving the pitcher no exemption based on "for the purpose of making the play" because the runner was not legitimately advancing, but had instead only feinted a steal?

What color is the sky in your world?

That's the only possible reason, although one could make an esoteric argument that the base WAS occupied, by the batter.

Apparently he was convinced by the other umpires that no balk was committed, for whatever reason.

Luke:

Imagine this scenario. LHP, R1 with bog lead. F1 comes set with hands about chin high. He disengages the rubber, but before he can throw to first he has to drop both hands to his sides and then bring them back up again and then throw. Heck, even I could steal on that move.

Nuh-unh. But you could make it safely back to first. Even if you did have a "bog" lead. What exactly is that anyway?
BWAHAHAAHAHAHAH!

Yeah I know. That is why the NF makes F1 stop with his hands below his chin. That way with his hands lower, he is able to throw to first faster.

I saw this spot on ESPN also.

Not that the pitcher is required to drop his hands, but his hand motion was consistent with a "wind-up". His foot <i>did</i> disengage the rubber, but while doing so, his hands were continuing with the typical wind-up motion that he typically uses for his normal delivery. I think that could constitute making a pitching motion while disengaged from the rubber ... which would be a balk.

Such a motion is patently unfair to the batter who could now be liable for batter's interference should he swing or hit the thrown ball. How is the batter to notice the subtle movement of the foot disengaging the rubber when EVERY other aspect of the pitcher's motion resembles his normal delivery?

Imagine if the batter had two strikes. He could hardly GUESS as to the status of the delivery. Is it a pitch or an attempted play?

I think it was a balk.

I once called the following a balk during a high school varsity game. With runners at 1st and 3rd, the pitcher assumed the windup position. After being reminded by his infielders to pitch from the stretch, the pitcher responded, "Ah, he's going to steal anyway." This was all a ruse that this team had apparently done before.

As the pitcher brought his hands up to begin his windup, R1 took off immediately. But, instead of taking a rocker step back with his FREE foot, the pitcher stepped back with his PIVOT foot. He then aborted his delivery and attempted to make a play on R1.

I immediately called it a balk to which the pitcher (and his coach) quickly pointed out that he had STEPPED OFF.

Yes he did, but he used a pitching motion as a means of stepping off. Highly deceptive and completely unfair to the offense.

Balk!

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Jul 22nd, 2005 at 03:08 AM]

David, I would have made it even clearer to the pitcher and coach... (from the windup) once the pitcher starts his motion to pitch, he's committed to pitch.

Cripes,
 

Shaka wrote:

"The rule book states that he should. Doesn't matter if he throws to a base the hands are supposed to be dropped first."

Another markedly wrong statement by an umpire that is attempting to tell us he works mostly college baseball.

All I know that by reading a few posts of DIFFEERENT posters on this page it certainly doiesn't take much knowledge to work college in some areas of America.

I would suggest that you read CoachJM's commnets on what the rule really says.




[Edited by Tim C on Jul 23rd, 2005 at 03:00 PM]

Very true David. I have called the same balk before. Once again, most coaches don't realize there's more to it than stepping off with the correct foot.

The pitcher's "normal" windup includes dropping the hands down, back up over his head, decent leg-kick, and then pitch.

The pitcher's actual motion in this non-balk was dropping his hands (which, even though this is not required, should shut up the early posters saying he didn't), and simply throwing home.

If you think it was simulating a pitch or even vaguely deceptive... watch the batter's reaction. He knew it wasn't a pitch. He relaxed and stepped back, even as the ball came home.

I was watching this game live - and screaming at the knucklehead announcers (as usual) as they stumbled over themselves trying to explain this one.

As far as the hand drop thing I've always felt that the pitcher only had to do it before he stepped back on the rubber. However, I was told this year to call it exactly how it states in the rule book (at least in one of my leagues).

I wish I could have seen the play involved. I wonder if the pitcher started an upward motion with his glove before stepping off.

Eric

Could you tell us which college conference you work?

Hmmm,
 

The Western Fantasy Conference.

Re: Cripes,
 

Dude what's your problem? You don't like me because I actually like wearing a hockey style helmet and you drag it over here? I never said I mostly do college ball. I just stated that I have done the summer leagues in the past. I also did varsity high school for several years. Now days I mostly just do Babe Ruth as it is better with my work schedule.


If you look at my following post you'll not that I explained myself further that we were instructed to call the not drop your hands balk from windup exactly how the book states. Up until this year I've never called it that way.

Get a grip Tim.

Eric

Hahahaha,
 

shaka:

It has nothing to do with you wearing a helmet.

It has everything to do with you trying to expand your umpire resume and "pretend" to be a college umpire.

Like many on the internet when you posted simply incorrect interps of rules your were exposed for what you really are:

A summer based Babe Ruth umpire.

No biggie you just should have been more truthful from the beginning.

Re: Re: Cripes,
 

That explains a lot. There are many babe-ruth-aged local leagues where the umpires, and the UIC, and the coaches all believe this "myth". Mnay also believe in the "fielders balk", the "hands are part of the bat" etc.

If your league only believes the "pitcher must drop the hands immediately", you are ahead of the game.

Re: Re: Re: Cripes,
 

Bob:

This is news to me. I have never, at any level, since 1972 met an umpire or coach who believed a pitcher had to drop his hands prior to throwing to a base when disengaging from the rubber. Never. The dumbest Rat in the world would see that this is just ridiculous.

I'd like to know the league and the UIC involved in this. I'd pay a $100 reward to hear the UIC actually say that this is a proper application of the rule. Make that $200.

In short. I don't believe this. Are you telling me that it makes any sense at all that an umpire claiming 17 years experience, including the colligiate level, would do this? Nope. Sorry. Somebody is not being honest about something. (Imagine that, someone anonymously being disegenuous on the internet...amazing.)

Re: Re: Cripes,
 

Since I'm new to this forum maybe I didn't know posting what types of ball I've done is a big sin here. Furthermore, I never lied or made myself out to be a college official. However, you are wrong sir. While at this time I mostly do Babe Ruth, Pony, and MSBL, in the past I've done High School, American Leagion, and yes, the local league around here that most of the college players are in. That particular league is NABA. When I was doing it they had different divisions and the top division consisted of mostly college players with a sprinkling of ex high school players and even some ex minor leaguers. Each teams makeup was mostly players from a certain college or university. No the ball was not on par with college ball during the regular season but it was still pretty good.

Now you have the explanation. You might also note that I clarified my first post. Hey, I'm a newbie, cut me some slack.

Re: Re: Re: Cripes,
 

Garth,

This is an exact quote of the first line I posted in the Hockey Helmet thread:

"I'm in my 17th year of baseball officiating which includes experience in high school varsity and summer collegiate leagues."

Granted maybe I should have phrased it differently. I was simply trying to establish a point of reference as to my experience. It was innocent and if it's offensive to you I apologize. I'll do better next time. I will state right now that I have NEVER officiated a regular season sanctioned college game.



Eric

Hmm,
 

Another guy that is using revisonist histoy.

Rule #1:

When you get caught red handed go change the post so you can hide it.

Hmmmm, it seems we have seen that before.

Re: Re: Re: Cripes,
 

In the interest of clarification I've got to be fair to the local Babe Ruth League. When I was told to call the must drop hands to side balk it was not in Babe Ruth, it was in another local league.

The Babe Ruth program in Utah is very well run and has some very good umpires. Many of the umps I work with in Babe Ruth are former high school officials who, for a myriad of reasons, can't work high school games anymore. In my case it came down to my work schedule. I just couldn't get off for 3p.m. games so I had to quit doing high school.

Eric

Re: Hmm,
 

Like I said Tim, I'm new, I don't know all the board intricacies of the board. Is there ever a point where you are willing to give the benefit of the doubt for my newbie feaux pas and judge me by what I post in the future?

Eric

motion naturally associated with his pitch
 

Your flame-a-thon is amusing, but what I find more interesting is the scenerio where R3 is trying to steal home, F1 legally disengages, but delivers a throw to F2 that is in every manner (except for the disengagement) a "motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not touching the pitcher's plate" and batter hits that throw/pitch.

Batter could/should be in-on the play and is obligated not to interfer with it. F1 could help us all out by taking an extra step or something that makes the play NOT look like a "motion naturally associated with his pitch", but he may not have time to do so. Since the batter could/should know what is going on wrt R3, I think that I would absolve F1 of his alleged sin.

F1 did all of these things:
1. made a motion naturally associated with a pitch;
2. had the wherewithall to recognize what was going on;
3. disengaged legally; and
4. did all that he could do to get an out.

Given all these being done, I'd take the opportunity to take the out. Call no balk, batter interference.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Cripes,
 

If it's one continuous move, then I agree with you.

But, I have seen F1 step off, stand there for a second with his hands together staring at the runenr, and then the umpire(s) and coaches all yell "balk" because F1 didn't drop his hands "immediately" upon stepping off the rubber. It's not a stretch to see this happening just as (or even just because) F1 tried a pick-off move after stepping off and keeping the hands together.

Re: Cripes,
 

Even at the MLB level, countless times I have seen a pitcher come set (i.e. hands together) then quickly step off the rubber without dropping his hands or even separating them for that matter.

He eventually separates them ... but not immediately.

I believe I have read an interpretation somewhere that the pitcher only has to separate his hands BEFORE reengaging the rubber.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Re: Re: Cripes,
 

That is correct.