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-   -   FED (ll:ru): Illegal substitution mechanic (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/21112-fed-ll-ru-illegal-substitution-mechanic.html)

LilLeaguer Thu Jun 30, 2005 04:25pm

[The title contains my code for a FED-based question asked by a LL umpire who would like an answer from Real Umpires(tm).]

I don't work FED games yet, but I've been trying to learn for when I'm ready to become a Real Umpire(tm). Over on the pay side, I found a series of articles by Kyle McNeely on Federation Substution. Should I consider him a proper authority? In any case, he didn't really go into the mechanics that FED umpires should use.

Take this scenario.

The Real Baseball team leads off with Tim, Alan, and Chris in the bottom of the first inning. After three innings, Real Baseball is ahead by 4 runs and their manager, Dirty Rat, announces that reserve "A" will go into the field, replacing Chris.

Unfortunately, the Small Balls stage a comeback and are actually leading going into the bottom of the sixth. After Tim strikes out, Chris walks out to the plate and announces to the umpire, Big Dog, that he is coming back into the game. Dog confirms this with Rat, who signals his approval.

As Mr. Dog strikes his second line through "A" on his lineup card, he notices the problem: Alan should be up now.

What does Big Dog do?

-LL

Tim C Thu Jun 30, 2005 05:39pm

Wow,
 
Gee I feel honored.

Check your "clicker", nod your head and ask Andy.

LilLeaguer Thu Jun 30, 2005 06:18pm

Honor
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tim C
Gee I feel honored.

Check your "clicker", nod your head and ask Andy.

You should feel honored. When you give advice, I often find it sound, and my system for recording substitutions is patterned after yours; it has helped. (Seriously, I've been reading this forum for a little over a year; it has improved my umpiring and instruction quite noticably.)

On the other hand, neither Mr. Konyar nor my "clicker" can answer a question of procedure under FED rules. As a FED umpire, in this situation, would you even notice that something was amiss? If you did notice it, would you be responsible to act on it? Mr. McNeely seems to hint that you might act immediately, but I can think of some reasons you might not.

-LL

Tim C Thu Jun 30, 2005 06:40pm

As you probably know,
 
Kyle is Elliot's right hand man in terms of FED.

As I read your situation it appears that all we have is a player trying to legally re-enter at the wrong time,

I think that is the issue . . .

But there are a couple of ways it could go and I think that is the trap that has been set:

1) A preventative umpire could say, "sorry man, but you can only check back in when your due up" . . . remember FED says you CANNOT do subs in advance.

2) An Ahole umpire could allow the sub, BOO, and then wait to see if the defense reacts . . . then make the call.

3) A real big Ahole umpire could allow the illegal sub and find a way to make it an out.

I guess Little, I would do the first thing:

If I was smart enough to know it was out of order, if I thought fast enough on my feet and if I could sell it I HOPE I would simply not allow the sub.

Psst, the real truth:

I would probably have no clue the guy was checking in a batter early and I would have dug my own hole.

Fun times I guess.

LilLeaguer Thu Jun 30, 2005 08:16pm

I didn't know, but perhaps I should have
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Tim C
Kyle is Elliot's right hand man in terms of FED.
No, I didn't. If I'd read the author's bio, I would have seen a hint, though.

I'm not being coy here; I really am "just" a Little League umpire. The closest I've gotten to a FED game is watching my son play for a year on a sub-junior varsity team. So I'm also not sure who Elliot is, but he must do more for the FED than advise them on rules.
Quote:



As I read your situation it appears that all we have is a player trying to legally re-enter at the wrong time,

I think that is the issue . . .

But there are a couple of ways it could go and I think that is the trap that has been set:

1) A preventative umpire could say, "sorry man, but you can only check back in when your due up" . . . remember FED says you CANNOT do subs in advance.

2) An Ahole umpire could allow the sub, BOO, and then wait to see if the defense reacts . . . then make the call.

3) A real big Ahole umpire could allow the illegal sub and find a way to make it an out.

I guess Little, I would do the first thing:

If I was smart enough to know it was out of order, if I thought fast enough on my feet and if I could sell it I HOPE I would simply not allow the sub.

Psst, the real truth:

I would probably have no clue the guy was checking in a batter early and I would have dug my own hole.

Fun times I guess.

The trap is that there are two interps with two different umpire procedures:
A) Chris is re-entering legally for "A", but batting OO.
B) Chris is re-entering illegally for Alan.

In case A), the approved mechanic would be to say nothing until the defense challenges the AB. In case B), the umpire has the option (or is it a duty?) to penalize Chris as soon as he steps into the batter's box.

I suppose Big Dog could ask Chris (or coach Rat) who he's coming in for. That would make the infraction clear, but it might go beyond expectations. In a clear BOO case, you wouldn't say anything.

Psst, even in full-on tournament mode, I'm not checking the batting order during an innning. My extra responsibility is only to ensure that substitutions that I'm notified of are legal. (Sorry for the LL-specific content.)

-LL

LDUB Thu Jun 30, 2005 08:34pm

Re: I didn't know, but perhaps I should have
 
Quote:

Originally posted by LilLeaguer
A) Chris is re-entering legally for "A", but batting OO.
B) Chris is re-entering illegally for Alan.

In case A), the approved mechanic would be to say nothing until the defense challenges the AB. In case B), the umpire has the option (or is it a duty?) to penalize Chris as soon as he steps into the batter's box.

I suppose Big Dog could ask Chris (or coach Rat) who he's coming in for. That would make the infraction clear, but it might go beyond expectations. In a clear BOO case, you wouldn't say anything.

Psst, even in full-on tournament mode, I'm not checking the batting order during an innning. My extra responsibility is only to ensure that substitutions that I'm notified of are legal. (Sorry for the LL-specific content.)

-LL

In part A, there is a specific phrase in the Federaion book which covers this. It says the penalty for an IS supercedes the penalty for BOO. Therefore, 2 outs can not occour on the play.

In either case, the sub is an illegal sub. Therefore if he is discovered, you must say something. Hopefully you would have realized this when you wrote down the change on your lineup card.


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