I was doing a 14 year-old tournament this last weekend.

1st game, early in the day, R2 leads off. F1 tries a pick-off, and the ball sails into center. R2 heads for 3rd where he's gunned down by F8.

Late in the day (my 3rd game), I have this team again. R2 leads off. F1 tries a pick-off, and the ball sails into center. R2 heads for 3rd where he's gunned down by F8.

Deja vu?

After the 2nd time, it was looking like this was a planned play.

I called nothing but the out at 3rd both times.

If you saw this multiple times in a game would you let it go? Would you call a balk?

Why would you call it a balk?

On what grounds would you balk this?

Did the pitcher throw to an unoccupied base? Nope
Did the pitcher use any illegal footwork or do anything illegal with his hands? Not according to your post.

It sounds like they have a kid with a gun in center, and run this play all the time. There's nothing to balk here.

You got it right, good call.

After these plays, I'm two outs closer to going home. The pitcher has thrown towards second base, the feilder failed to get it. Coach of the offense is going to have a hard time convincing me otherwise. As long as the throw is to second and not a rainbow to F8, I've got outs.

-Josh

Play 1 - Good play
Play 2 - Good play.

If I saw it 100 times in a game, there is no way it is even slightly associated with a balk.

What in the world, would make you think this is a balk?

Why would the quality of the throw change anything? I don't care if he throws to the center field fence, it's still not a balk.

And what if it is a rainbow to F8, F7 or even F9?

After thinking about these plays for a couple of days, I started to 2nd guess myself. I was thinking that F1 wasn't throwing to 2nd base, he's throwing to center field.

Thanks for your input.

And what if he was?

tornado,

He's not required to throw to 2B - only to <b>step</b> to 2B (i.e. more to 2B than 1B or 3B). As long as he completes the step, he is perfectly legal in <b>throwing</b> the ball to F8 (or F7 or F9 for that matter).

JM

Then what would be the difference if the pitcher stepped to second and threw to F6 (playing deep in shallow left center)?

"8.05(d) The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play."

If the pitcher can't throw to an unoccupied base, why can he throw a ball into center field if that is clearly his intention? That's why I included the part about a rainbow throw to the centerfielder. I'm not an expert by any means so maybe I shouldn't be looking at it like this, but that's how my mind was working. Please let me know if I need to think another direction.

-Josh

Nothing. Better be awake, runner.

Matthew F. & U of I Blue,

The pitcher is allowed to <b>feint</b> to an occupied 2B. As long as he completes the <b>step</b> legally (the step is <b>required</b> for an "in contact" pitcher - else, balk), he may throw the ball (or not) wherever he wishes.

JM

Duh
 

My fault on that. I was forgetting about the pitcher being in contact with the plate. Once he completes his feint towards second and comes off the plate, he can do whatever he wishes. My bad for not thinking it through fully before posting.

-Josh

Well,
 

Let's see . . .

Nothing in the rules say that F1 even has to throw the ball to second,

Nothing in the rules says he must make a good throw anywhere,

Nothing in the rules says he must throw to F4 or F6 only.

"Please let me know if I need to think another direction."

You need to think in another direction.

To expand on what the Coach said, he did throw to a base, he just overshot the fielder. By throwing the ball in the direction of 2nd (even though he doesn't have to throw it at all) he met the requirements he was under in making a legal throw.

Edit : Tee beat me to it, Well said.

I'm a little confused also...

I've have been told it's a balk to throw to an unoccupied base. I've also been told that a pick-off throw to the F3, while not holding the runner and making no attempt towards the bag (i.e. F3 is 10'-15' behind the bag, catches the throw and just stands there), that it would be a balk also.

So why wouldn't throwing to an outfielder or infielder playing shallow outfield not be a balk?

EDIT
(got the part about throwing in the vicinity of 2B, but come on... a rainbow to the outfield?!?)

THe base was not unoccupied. As far as a throw to first, you must complete the throw or it is a balk. You are not required to throw to second as long as you step towards the base.


EDIT: once he disconnects from the pitching plate, why can't he throw the ball anywhere he pleases ???

Think about it this way guysWhy would any team throw a "rainbow" to the outfield? Most players could go to the concession stand, get a hot dog and coke, go to the dugout and get a handful of seeds and then get to 3rd base before the throw got there.

There is no balk here, lets not try to make situations that prove each other wrong. There were a few people who know quite a bit about baseball telling you it isn't a balk, lets just leave it that way.

Because the defense could use this as a trick play...

The pitcher turns to throw towards 2B, F8 is breaking towards 2B, F1 lobs a throw to F8 who catches the ball about 25 feet behind 2B and guns down the runner advancing to 3B.

I understand that if the pitcher disengages the rubber, he can throw anywhere he wants. But if the pitcher is still in contact with the rubber, does a lob to the outfield constitute a balk since the pitcher is obviously not throwing to an occupied base?

And how many times have I heard on this board that umpires should take into account the pitcher's intent?!?

Just because it's a "trick play" doesn't mean it's illegal. Since F1 isn't required to throw at all to second, it doesn't matter to where he does throw it (as long as it's more toward secodn than toward third or first).

The rule on throwing to first is different.

Matthew F.,

By rule, an in contact pitcher is allowed to <b>feint</b> a throw to occupied 2B or 3B (<b>not</b> 1B) as long as he makes a step to the base he is feinting to. He is not required to throw, but, if he chooses to throw, he may throw the ball <b>anywhere he chooses</b> - even while in contact - and it is <b>not</b> a balk!

He may throw it to the centerfielder with the express intent of deceiving the runner that he has made an unintended bad throw, and it is perfectly legal for him to do so.

He has met all the requirements of 8.01 and 8.05, so this is a legal deception of the runner.

JM

100 times? Just how many innings are in a game in your neck of the woods? ;)

My fields must be configured wrong. The fields I work don't have any bases in center field at all... so I'm having trouble imagining an unoccupied base out there.

Rule: It is a balk when... "8.05(d) The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play."

Note the actual words used in the rule. It says you cannot throw to an unoccupied base.

From Matthew F: "does a lob to the outfield constitute a balk since the pitcher is obviously not throwing to an occupied base?"

The rule does NOT say you have to throw to an occupied base. There is a difference. You cannot throw to an unoccupied base. A throw (rainbow or bullet or otherwise) to F8 is not a throw to an unoccupied base.

[Edited by mcrowder on Jun 23rd, 2005 at 02:10 PM]

Thanks guys. I think where I and Matthew were getting hung up was the can't throw to an unoccupied base part. In my head, I was taking that to mean, he must throw to an occupied base. MC's statement clears it up really well I think.

-Josh

(And just to pre-empt the inevitable question about why throwing to a firstbaseman not near first base is a balk, when throwing to CF not near 2nd base is not...

The rule regarding 1st base is different, and says that if you step toward first base, you must throw toward first base (not the first baseman).

2nd and 3rd do not have that requirement.)

How does 8.05(a) pertain (if it does)?

8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when-

(a) The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such delivery; If a lefthanded or righthanded pitcher swings his free foot past the back edge of the pitcher's rubber, he is required to pitch to the batter except to throw to second base on a pick off play.

Your also missing the part where the pitcher IS NOT REQUIRED to throw to 2nd base. He can legally feint, he IS NOT REQUIRED to throw to 2nd even if his foot breaks the back plane of the rubber. You happened to find one of the many contradictions in OBR.

Yes, that is covered by another rule and the pitcher is allowed to feint to second base.

So now we have...

If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when-

If a lefthanded or righthanded pitcher swings his free foot past the back edge of the pitcher's rubber, he is required to pitch to the batter except to throw (or feint, since that is allowed by rule) to second base on a pick off play.

This is why the quality of posting on this board is going down. You have been told by at least 4 different posters on why this isn't a balk but you parse the rules to make your interpretation "correct".

Bottom line :

Pitcher is not required to throw to second under any code, period. Therefore, he can't balk by throwing the ball over the fielder covering 2B.

Rather than accept the ruling that a few of our more knowledgeable members have given you, you continue to argue.

aw cmon, half the fun in umpiring is inventing new rules on the fly to stop plays that look 'funny' to us ;)

wow, I can't believe I forgot about that. My bad :D

hey
 

do u even know what a balk is? that was not a balk. a balk is where the pitcher winds up and in his windup he throws to a base trying to pick them off but thats illegal. even if u wind up and during the wind up stop. thats a balk. well at least i hope...

Ashley,

Do you know someone named Drumbum?

Re: hey
 

Can you answer that same question?

Common balks :

Starting and stopping the pitching motion.
Not coming to a complete and discernable stop when coming set.
Failing to step directly to a base when attempting a pick off or legal feint.
Turning of the shoulders while in the set postion after bringing your hands together.

There are a lot more balks than what you described as a balk. Rulebooks are 5.95. Pick one up today.

Ashley is dumbrumb's little sister.

Well, excuse me. If you remember not so long ago, at least a dozen different posters (including myself) believed bringing your leg staight up and stepping back was properly disengaging the rubber. As it turns out, we were wrong even though we had more umpires who thought it wasn't a balk. So shear numbers on one side of a discussion don't mean squat. That's why I'm asking these questions.

I find more in the rules and rules interpretations that would imply that a pickoff attempt (The pitcher steps with his non-pivot foot towards 2B [occupied] while in contact with the rubber) needs to be towards an occupied base (or unoccupied base for the purpose of making a play).

99 BRD (only BRD I could find - lots of stuff boxed up since I moved)

PITCHER:STEPS:TOWARD BASE:FIELDER PLAYING OFF BAG
PRO: The pitcher when throwing or making a legal feint while touching the rubber must step "directly toward a base before throwing TO THAT BASE." (BRD emphasis) Penalty:balk. (8.05c Pen)

ALSO: OFF INTERP 140-356: The violation (throwing to a fielder instead of a base) can only occur on a throw to first; the pitcher may throw to the fielder at second and third, regardless of where he is stationed. (NAPBL 6.4a)


Why do the offical interpretations implicitly say it's not considered "not throwing directly to a base" if F1 throws to a fielder in the vicinity of 2B or 3B, if it was meant for F1 to throw the ball anywhere? Why restrict the interpretation to fielders at 2B and 3B? Heck, why not just say F1 has carte blanc and can throw to any position he feels like!!!

I was brought up using FED rules, so I'll admit I might be a little thick grasping the OBR interpretation. That's one of the reason I'm here - to get better (balks are one of my weak points, if you haven't noticed). Thanks for your patience.

Actually Bob, I'm not sure anymore. I have had two dlb. headers in the last 5 days , where the second game has gone 12 innings. (Long nights)

Both games got tied in the 7th.

If I remember correctly, Garth has a copy of this "Family Tree" and it turns out that Ashley is really the girlfriend/little sister.

First off, I apologize for being crass, I had a horrendous day yesterday and I apologize sincerly for taking it out on you Matthew.

I think what we have here is a situation that is allowed becuase there isn't anything specific in the rulebook saying it isn't. The maneuver you described is legal because there isn't anything in the book that says it is illegal. 1B is treated differently than 2B and 3B. If you motion towards 1st, you have to throw there. If you motion towards 2nd and 3rd, you don't have to throw there. Just like the "skunk in the outfield" play, which is very bush league. We want to penalize it, but we really can't because there aren't rules that say we can.

[Edited by aevans410 on Jun 24th, 2005 at 11:25 AM]

Except that I don't understand why anyone would WANT to penalize it. It seems like a good play that can be designed to get an out (with some risk). Sounds like good baseball to me. Similar to the double-steal play where the ball is thrown to shortstop in order to try to get R3 to break for home.

I meant the skunk in the outfield play, not the overthrow to 2nd. :D

I edited the above post to read what I meant to say instead of what it sounded like. Trying to answer posts between phone calls and customers isn't very conductive to proofreading posts to convey the correct idea.

[Edited by aevans410 on Jun 24th, 2005 at 11:00 AM]

i am not drumbum's little sister i dont even know him and i am not a kid. think harder boys....

1. I am an only child.
2. Ashley I decided to stop being lazy and fix my grammar you should do it also.
3. Ashley there are so many types of balks I don't want to count them (for crying out loud in FED it is a balk if you lick your fingers and touch the ball before wiping them off).
4. Were did you lean balks from cause in some instances that isn’t even a balk (you can still step off while your in the wind up).
5.Why are you taking shots at me for something she said?