I used the GD stance for a little while. Loved many things about it with one exception. I stood about three feet behind the catcher and had trouble seeing the outer part of the plate. Can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. Many on here say that if done correctly, I shouldn't have a problem. Could the catchers be closer to the plate than normal? I know that getting higher would help, but I am as high as I can go. Maybe placing my hands farther up my leg from the knee will get me higher.

Also, is there anything wrong with using all parts of the GD stance and getting closer, so I can see the plate. I welcome responses from Tim and Carl, as they seem to have this system down pat!

[Edited by illini_ref on Jun 10th, 2005 at 06:49 PM]

I have been using it, to the degree that I understand it, and I like it because I can always be rock solid. The conventional wisdom says back up and raise up higher to see the outside corner, but I have had some catchers who crowd the plate so bad I could stand up straight in any stance and not be able to see it. I try to get them to back up, but if they don't catch on, I just back up and the corner is where I think it is. I don't know who said it, but "I don't need to see it because I know where it is", or something like that.

Finally started using it about 15 games ago. To me, I just feel so relaxed behind the dish and seeing the pitch a lot better when I use it. On the few times the outside corner was blocked somewhat, I did notice the catcher was farther up. Usually what I do, if I've got a split second, is shift about a half step to whichever direction the batter is batting from. I don't know if this is mechanically correct (Tim or Carl?), however it works for me and I am able to re-gain the outside corner.

Definitely agree with tjones....I see the pitch MUCH better in the GD, and as someone in another thread mentioned, my number of low strikes goes down as I can see the knees better. The only problem I encounter is with younger, smaller kids, but I am fortunately young enough to be able to spread myself out a little wider to get a better view.

GD Part 1
 

The timing of this post was excellent.

As I was clearing off my desk getting ready to leave work to work a game I read this perfect post.

Since I was going to work the dish at my game I decided to put ego aside and "really" pay attention to what I see and what I don't see when working the Davis stance.

For the last four years I have intoned over-and-over that from the Davis stance I can "always see the entire plate and the dirt between the plate and catcher!"

I have said this so many times I myself began to believe it.

Now let's set a few rules here for you to understand where I am coming from:

1) Not only do I ONLY work "Big Boy Ball" I seem to get a pretty strong share of the "better" quality teams. This means, in turn, that I see pretty good high school level catching.

2) I am 6' tall. Not sure if this is really important but it could be different if you are 5' 6" or 6' 5".

3) The most critical part of the stance is that you work "double wide" -- this means that your feet are placed WELL OUTSIDE your shoulder width.

4) Finally remember you still WORK IN THE SLOT!

Now my report:

My first point is that catchers are as different as the weather of a spring day in Oregon.

Last night is a great example. While both catchers were slim in build one was about 6' 2" and the other about 5' 7".

The larger issue is that one worked as "normally taught" (I think it is pretty universial that catchers are taught to place themselves 18" back from the back foot of the hitter and move forward and backward as an adjustment to the placement of the hitter) and one worked VERY close to the plate.

(Diary Entry) TOP OF THE FIRST:

First hitter is left handed. As always this causes a problem with setting up. In a conversation with MLB Umpire Mike Winters one night he noted, "there are two things that make this hard: first, he se fewer left handed hitters and therefore it is weird to begin with and second when a right handed hitter is at bat the catcher's glove is right in front of our face . . . it is easy to find references to make the call."

Pretty basic but true.

Knowing that I was going to explain what I was actually seeing I made some observations:

1) No matter how much I moved around I could not stay in the slot and see the pitcher through the batters hands. I could move back, forward, left or right -- but if I really wnated to stay in the slot I had to give up seeing the "release point" of the pitcher.

2) With this specific catcher I could see the entire plate -- looking across the plate from the slot.

3) I started 3' deep on this specific batter/catcher combo and I could see the plate and dirt. WOW! I proved my point, to all of you.

4) First pitch grounder to F4 who tosses to F3 for the out.

Cool!

Next hitter is a right handed hitter that stands pretty much well centered in the box.

Again, I can see the entire plate.

Now my first point is that during the first half inning I could see the entire plate on both left and right handed batters. The catcher was the 6' 2" kid. He didn't shift much after the pitcher started his motion and with good timing I was pretty much 100% correct on balls and strikes for the half inning.

I will be back in a little while for Part 2 which will discuss my other half inning actions with the smaller catcher and his placement.

Re: GD Part 1
 

Thanks, Tee.
I await with bated breath.
mick

GD Part Deux
 

So now when we reach the bottom of the first I am very "excited."

The home team catcher is smaller and I recognize that I will have a very, very good look at the plate.

WRONGO!

When this catcher set up he was REAL FAR forward. I mean he was just back of the tip of the plate.

FIRST RETRACTION OF PREVIOUS STATEMENTS:

There is no way that an umpire can see the entire outside portion of the plate if a catcher works REAL FAR froward.

I don't know how to explain it any better than no matter how high, how much you move sideways there is a portion of the plate that just disappears.

BACK TO THE GAME:

OK, so now I know that I have been either lying to all you folks OR, just maybe, we think we see things at times that we don't.

We get through the first batter with little trouble.

When the next hitter comes up the light goes off:

The first hitter was WAAAAY forward in the box so F2 had moved forward . . . now this hitter took a more normal position and WOW I could see the plate again.

So my first observation for those that work Big Boy Ball . . . it is probably the position of the batter more that establishes the catcher's poition and, ergo, what you can and cannot see.

So if we talk about the stance we do have some type trade off:

1) First challenge is your partners, coaches and fans will comment on how far you are from the catcher. HOWEVER, if you cll great balls/strikes no one will even notivce.

2) Because we have a solid base we do see the pitch better (less movement). And since we are deeper we "see" the pitch longer.

3) I canot make the point strong enough. Make sure your stance is really wide . . . double wide.

4) Since your stance is "double wide" you may not be able to get out from behnd the pate as fast and get as far up the first base line when following the catcher on a grounder to the infield.

5) Read the paid portion of this site and I have an article coming about a lot more observations about the stance, the use of the stance and other peoples impressins of the stance.

I'll be back later with three mechanic ideas that blend with this stance and how they work for me.

Re: GD Part Deux
 

For me:

1) If the batter / catcher move far forward, I move forward about 1/2 as much.

2) While I might not be able to see all of the plate before the pitch, I can see all of it on a pitch to the outside corner. If I can't see the plate when the pitch is caught, then I know it's not outside.

SLOT
 

I think Tim makes an important point... SLOT.

The slot is that width between the batter and the inside edge of the plate. The umpire should put his head somewhere in that width and place it appropriately for the best view - pitcher's release point, outside edge of the plate, up and down on the batter, etc. The umpire is not relegated to place his nose directly straight back from the inside edge.

After all, the umpire is not doing that for the top of the zone (in the GD stance) or obviously any other edge of the zone.

Place your head somewhere within the width of the slot where you get the best view.

P.S. Sometimes, with a batter that is squeezing the plate, I've found the best position is slightly inside the width of the plate. Wow, that's heretical! Nobody really cares where you put your head, as long as you have the best view of the strike zone.

Re: GD Part Deux
 

Thanks again, TEE!

Using GD for two years now, long enough to learn many of the nuances, I offer that, for me, getting down the line is easier, as well as getting out of the way of F2 going after a straight-up foul ball. GD required only a small adjustment in choreography, but most important, for me, is the lack of fatigue using GD, thus the more energy reserves to get to where I hafta be in the second half of every game.

mick

Re: GD Part Deux
 

Thanks. I have been wondering what I was doing wrong when guys who have working GD longer say you an always see the corner of the plate. I am wide, I am back, and I am high, I am in the slot, but I can't see the corner when the catcher crowds the plate. If they set up 18 inchs back, no problem.

GD Final Phase
 

So now I have learned a lot about myself and the use of the Davis stance.

Exactly as Bob noted above I can always see the front edge (and maybe always the front half) of the plate.

I can always see the catcher's glove . . .

By seeing those two things I know if a pitch is on the outside corner or not. I can see it as it enters the hitting area.

So, in full fledge truth, when I said I can "always see all the plate" that was inaccurate. But unless the catcher is actually sitting on the plate I can certainly see enough of the plate to call ball/strike.

The Davis stance does mean that I have a solid plateform to work from, it does mean that I am at the exact same head height for each batter, it does mean that I am much more fresh at the end of a game.

For those reasons I will stay with the stance.

Two mechanics chages for me this year that have worked:

When "Time" is called by either the batter or the catcher I do the standard rasie my arms and shout "TIME!" but then I also point at whomever called the 'time".

Usually this is the batter but three times this season I had a catcher call "time" just as his picture decided to finally pitch and my signalling that it was the pitcher's teammate that requested the time I didged comments from all involved.

The second mechanic is maybe just a "Tee Thing!"

On swinging strikes (standard every day type) I do not signal the strike until the catcher throws the ball back to the pitcher. I do it in a very casual manner and try to time it so the ball is in the air betwix the battery mates.

When there is a strike three swinging strike that ends an inning I actually take my mask off as I walk from the plate area and THEN signal the swing.

Called strikes and checked/unchecked are done along the standard styles.

Read my article in the paid portion of this site on what troubles I had with the Davis Stance that had NOTHING to do with the quality of my work.

I know there is one out there, where can I find the thread that describes how to use the GD stance. I am interested in trying it out.

Carl has free articles on officiating.com about the GD stance.

http://www.officialforum.com/thread/13673
http://www.officialforum.com/thread/...&postid=143045
http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...9&pagenumber=1
http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...?postid=144804
http://www.officialforum.com/thread/...&postid=164358
http://www.officialforum.com/thread/20320

Tim,
Good suggestion on the pointing method after the batter or catcher call time. I started doing that last night. Pitcher was holding the set too long, so batter requested time. Of course the pitcher finally decided to pitch as I am calling time. He has that irked look on his face as he has to hold on to the ball. But as you mentioned, I then pointed to the batter and the look disappeared, like he understood that what had happened and now it was okay.

Thanks for the tip,
Jason

Tim, need to ask another 2 question. I usually work the heal/toe in the slot of course. I did a high quality varsity game a few weeks ago and decided to put a bit more distance between me and the catcher. For some reason it seemed like I had a much better view of the pitches that game. I assumed it was because of the modified GD approach. Last night, I had a low quality Babe Ruth game so I decided to give the GD stance a try. First, where in heavens name do you put your hands? I felt weary of placing them on my knees for fear of getting them smashed by an arrent pitch or foul. I know sandwiching my fingers between the ball and my shin gaurds would hurt far more than just getting hit by the ball. Secondly, I am only 5'5" tall or should I say 5'5" short. I couldn't get completely comfortable because I felt that I was standing to upright. I noticed also that I had a bit more difficulty with the pitches high in the strike zone. Using the heal/toe, my eyes were at the top of the strike zone. Using the GD my eyes were way up high. How do you adjust? Any suggestions?

Not TEE, but only me.

Hands : Indicator is held loosely beside my knee with thumbs behind top of knee guards

Top of Zone : As with the low pitch moving up because you are working higher, the top of the zone will also go up. If you don't like where it moved, lower it. If you are an umpire that uses the bar to control upper strikes, tilt your head down. By widening your stance, your head will also go down. If you drop too far, you may lose the great view. ;)

Trust your equipment.
mick


<HR>
Awkward batters swinging at terrible pitches ... hurt!

That's it, I gotta try this...

Practice practice practice
 

You can't expect to perfect a new stance in a few games. I used the entire summer to work on the new stance and like you described above the hardest part to me was the high zone.

But with some work, you start learning the zone again and then it almost becomes automatic again.

Concentrate on the high pitches, see where F2 is catching the ball, look at where its crossing the plate according to the batter (since this will change from batter to batter)

With some practice it will work.

Thanks
David

DAMN! I was doing great with the GD stance but all of a sudden, I lost the outside corner! I can see the outside corner, but all of a sudden, the pitches don't look right! The other night, I couldn't call an outside pitch to save my life. Should I try moving toward the center of the plate temporarily?

ozzy6900,
Spend a little windshield time [<I>on the way to the game</I>] visualizing that outside zone before you get to the field.
When you see that first pitch on/off the outside corner, you already have it clearly defined.
mick

I'll give it a shot, Mick. :D

Re: GD Part Deux
 

Tee --

You don't say why this is important. I know this is part of the stance but don't see why it is critical, especially since standing high is supposed to make up for being back from the catcher. Some of us "altitude challenged" folks can't afford to lose any more by going to an extra-wide stance.

When I started using GD last summer, the extra-wide stance tore up adductors and hip flexors. I should have done more stretching before I started using GD. Should have but didn't. I narrowed my stance, which kept things from getting worse, but the pain didn't go away until after fall ball.

Wider is more stable but it doesn't seem that the increase in stability outweigh the loss of height.

Re: Re: GD Part Deux
 

ChapJim,
Sounds like you were using the "too wide" stance.
The Gerry Davis system is about comfort and stability.

For what it's worth, I just measured my stance.
5'10"; 185#; Shoulder width: 18"
Stance width: 36" [outside of foot to outside of foot]
(<I>Wow!!! That's double-wide eh? Cool!</I>)

Eye height standing: 66-1/2"
Eye height at rest before pitch: 54"
Eye height at delivery: 50"

It is what it is. [shrug]
mick

Yep,
 

Chappy:

Again I am 6' tall. I am 40" width.

Comfort is one part of the equation.

Also consider that with your stance wider your more soild when you rest hands on knees.

The stance is about being solid and being comfortable.

For the vertically challenged I would think that the stretch stance can still be used just keep it in proportion to your height.

I know that many of you have and want nothing to do with LL or other 60' diamond ball, but has anyone tried the GD stance with a 46' or 50' mound? If so, I would be interested in hearing your observations and critique, and modifications (if any) that you have found useful.

Yes, I have done 6 games on small diamond this year, 3 of them on the plate. The GD is still good, because it eases the stress in my back and knees from trying to get as low as the players are. I used to work the knee for these games, but GD is better.

Re: Re: Re: GD Part Deux
 

5' 10"

Toe-to-toe: 40"

Re: Re: Re: Re: GD Part Deux
 

Bob,
What are you hiding from? :)
(I'll get that wide with short batters.)
mick

I've done both small field and big field, using the GD stance, and have no problems. Have gotten hit less and feel that my strike zone is so consistant. Also, less stress on the body after a tough double-header.



Doug