Fed rules. Pitcher throwing fast ball slow enough he could not get a speeding ticket in a school zone. Curverball comes in, does not break. Batter does not flinch at all and takes it in the helmet. All to obvious he was wanting to take it as my deade Granny could have moved out of the way.

Do you give him first??

I personnaly am torn about it. I can see both ways. Yeah it is in the head and most people would not say a word to give him first. But you know there will be people still saying he has to move per the rules. I would be happy to give him first with the slightest of movement to "avoid" but like I said, he did not even flinch.

Let's play it this way too. Batter ducks his head into the strike zone and takes it there. Call it a strike and keep him at home? This really isn't 3rd world as I have see batters come really close to doing this, mostly on big breaking curves.

The only variable that's not in your post that I think should contribute to your decision is the player's age.

If he has enough time once the pitch is thrown to go get a Gatorade, come back and take it in the head I'd call a dead ball and send him back to the box. As a matter of fact, I've had to call that once so far this spring. The only difference was he took it in the shoulder.

If he puts his head in the strike zone, I think its HTBT. Unless I was certain he failed to attempt to get out of the way, I'd give him the base. Poor reflexes shouldn't be penalized.

With all that said, either way you go its a tough call. This past weekend during a tournament (15u division), we had four hit batsmen in one game. Fastballs and breaking balls. Nothing malicious or intentional and we had already discussed during our pregame that if the PU wasn't sure about B1's actions, we'd go to BU. With each hit batsmen the defensive coach barked but each time they got a base without a PU/BU conference.

You've got to go with what they give you, either way someone won't be happy.

IG3

I understand what you are getting at here but did you ever stop to concider the old "deer in the headlights" problem? When many youth batters see the ball coming for them (especially the head), many of them just freeze. I don't care how slow the ball is coming in, a lot of them just don't know what to do. As a PU, you can usually tell when a player is "hunting for a free ride". In almost any HBP in the helmet, B1's getting 1st.

Again, working youth players can be fun here. B1, by ducking down is trying to avoid the pitch. And again, the PU has to really see what happened. I'm not going to committ to a yes or a no here because it is really a HTBT situation.

HUH?!?
Pitch is IN THE STRIKE ZONE and B gets hit?
Dead Ball, Strike, Stay right there Bubba [unless it's strike 3/ OUT].

this is (was) a POE for us this year. Batter does not make an attempt to avoid, call the pitch and keep him in the box. That doesnt cause me any qualms at all.

Obviously, a pitch in the SZ that hits a batter is a strike.

If the pitched ball is a strike (swinging strike or strike by pitch location), the HBP penalty is not enforced; The ball is declared dead.

Curve ball is different
 

I will give a batter much more latitude on a curve since he may be waiting for the ball to break.

So most of the time he's going to get first with no hesitation.

You will know the obvious ones when the batter intentionally gets hit and you keep him in the box.

But if any doubt on a curve, give him first.

Thanks
DAvid

Sure, try this one out - curve ball high, would be called a ball if left alone but batter ducked down and got nailed on the way down. Ball not in the strike zone but the helmet is. That is why I said HTBT! Obviously, if the pitch is in the strike zone and the batter gets hit there he goes no where and it's a dead ball. I thought we all knew that - but there I go taking thngs for granted again.

Well, Ozzy, I thought so too: thus the HUH?!?

I'm having a hard time visualising your hypothetical:
"...batter ducked down and got nailed on the way down. Ball not in the strike zone but the helmet is."; but that may be just me trying to read in something that's not there.

I was mostly responding to:
Which ain't no HTBT.

Okay, 15 yard penalty for both of us!

:D :D :D

Very dependent upon level of play and how obvious the action, or lack thereof, is to all---judgment factor. If any doubt exists then award the base. Fastballs typically get awards.

As for the head in the strikezone, I once kept a batter there that got hit in the helmet after ducking a gravity aided curve (JV level). It was very obvious to me, and apparently to others. Very few comments came after my explanation that the pitch was in the zone, and it was strike 3 on the batter. Just be certain the pitch was there---any benefit of doubt goes to batter in this situation.


Just my opinion,

Freix

Ozzy/cbfoulds,

"Okay, 15 yard penalty for both of us!" Is this a FED/NCAA ruling? I've been through my OBRs twice and can't find anything about this? Where is it assessed from? :o)

15 yard penalty, he is half way to 1B as you are trying to get him to understand he needs to return to the plate for sticking his head in the strike zone to get hit.

A little different...
 

than ducking and not moving etc.

I tend to feel there is an area that belongs to the pitcher and that is where he should pitch the ball. This area is more than just the strike zone - every pitch does not necessarily need to be a strike. The pitcher is also allowed area to throw "balls" - tempt the batter to swing at pitches out of the zone.

I also feel there is an area that belongs to the batter. The two areas are separate and do not intersect.

If the batter encroaches on the pitcher's area I may not give him first - I will keep him there and call the pitch based upon its location.

If the pitcher encroaches on the batter's area... that's a poor pitch and the batter gets first if he is hit.

This is for High School and and up. At lesser levels, there is no telling where the pitch will go so now the pitcher's responsibility goes up - I'm more likely to award 1st.

Well I stated it is Fed rules, thus High School (mostly 8-)) The batter made it clear he was gonna take the pitch and even admitted that since it was so slow afterwards. It really floored me as you figure some self preservation would kick in and he would move a little and thus I could easily award him 1st with no afterthought about it.
The general rule of thumb is in the head give him the base. I have also had guys say never call one in the zone unless it so blatently obvious that it was in the zone. I can buy both and have no problem with it. This was a tuff one to chew tho since the pitch was so slow.

Re: A little different...
 

This concept is the NCAA rule and one of the proposed FED rules changes for last year

Re: Re: A little different...
 

Bob, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe NCAA once took that position within written rule, but soon after changed back to requiring attempt to avoid. They found too many batters were all too willing to take the pitch to the body without any avoidance attempt in order to receive the award. The latest copy of NCAA that I have (2003) states:
<ul>If the batter makes no attempt to avoid being touched by the ball and the pitch is out of the strike zone, the pitch shall be called a ball. The ball is dead, no runners may advance and the batter is not awarded first base.</ul>
Have they once again changed their rule????
I'll agree that collegiate umpires will typically provide any benefit of doubt to the batter, thus providing awards to most batters. Still, NCAA rule (as OBR) provides the official the backing to keep the batter in the box if he judges no attempt to avoid the pitch was made.


Just my opinion,

Freix

Re: Re: Re: A little different...
 

They changed it again. No requirement to mov if the pitch is inside the line of the batter's box. Without a doubt the best rule there is of this nature. Why require the batter to move or attempt to move on such a poor pitch.

I use this interpretation in all games I work. And I will tell any coach that argues, "I didn't tell your pitcher to throw it there."

--Rich

If a pitcher is going to throw a pitch that is intended to CURVE ... then, in my opinion, the batter can stand still and WAIT for it to curve. If it doesn't curve enough to avoid him and he ends up getting hit with the pitch ... too bad for the pitcher. Reward the batter 1st.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

my ignorance .....
 

What does HTBT stand for ?



Doug

The sky is falling, or should be. I agree with Emerling.

Rich . . .
 

I feel so "dirty" . . .

I agree with Memphis also.

I have been pondering on this for a couple days now. From the original post, "Curveball comes in, does not break". How do we know it's a curveball if it don't break? Is this an assumption because the pitch was slower? How do we know it wasn't a change that slipped out of the pitcher's grip?

If a batter stands in the box, doesn't move a muscle, and gets hit, he stays in the box (unless it is college game). I don't buy that deer in the headlights argument. If he makes any effort, even a feeble one, he goes to 1B. I have had some lean a thigh into an inside curveball, and they stay too. It was early last year since I have kept a batter in the box and it was twice in the same game by the same batter, and both times he leaned a thigh into the ball. The second time I told him "I don't believe you did that again".

You know it's a curveball because of the spin ... because of the release ... and because you've seen <i>thousands</i> of them.

There's no mistaking a breaking pitch for a fastball.

There's no mistaking a breaking pitch for a straight change.

Curveball ... slider ... slurve ... they are all breaking pitches and there is no mistaking them.

It is important that an umpire be able to identify pitches because when a bean ball war begins, you can safely assume that the pitcher was not attempting to hit a batter with a breaking pitch. But you have to KNOW that it was a breaking pitch.

I think the NCAA got it right as they do not require a batter to move whenever a pitch is thrown within the confines of the batter's box. If a pitcher is going to throw a pitch within the batter's box, he shouldn't be surprised if it ends up hitting the batter.

To my way of thinking, I don't think I've ever seen a batter not "flinch", however slight, prior to being hit. At least I'm consistent in this regard.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

I am familiar with spin and release, but it ain't a curve ball if it don't curve. It's just a weird looking ball. I have seen thousands of curve balls that looked like fastballs until they got to the plate. That's what makes a good curveball.

I have never seen a bean ball. I have seen some high and insides with purpose, but no bean balls. But all the high and insides were fastballs. What's the point of throwing on off spead with purpose?

Re: Re: Re: A little different...
 

I don't know - you may be right.

I don't have a copy of the latest NCAA rulebook. Perhaps they have changed it - I don't know. I *do* know that at one time they did NOT require a batter to avoid a pitch thrown through the batter's box. It thought that was a good rule. It certainly simplified things and it seems fair.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

NCAA rules give the batter the batter the box. If hit while in it he goes to 1B.

Re: my ignorance .....
 

Had To Be There (in other words, a sitch that you had to have seen yourself to help you decide the ruling)