Our league plays by NFHS rules, OK there's a 2-2 count with one out, runners at 1st(R1) and 3rd(R2). The pitch is thrown and the batter swings and misses, the catcher doesn't catch the ball however, and the batter runs to first and R1 goes to second, while the catcher just held R2 at 3rd as he thought the batter-runner going to first was out anyway as first base was occupied. The umpires called the batter-runner at first base safe, saying first base wasn't occupied as R1 left on the pitch and was stealing second. My contention is that until R1 occupies another base by touching it and taking possesion of it he still officially "occupies" first base, so the batter should be called out on strikes. These umpires said I was wrong and they were told by the head of the umpires at our organization that a base isn't occupied if you go on the pitch to steal a base. Who is right? And could you give me the rule # where this might be referenced? I want this to get corrected if I'm right like I think I am. Thanks in advance!

You're right, they're wrong. 1st is occupied until the runner legally acquires 2nd. Unless the steal was completed before the pitcher began his motion (highly doubtful), 1st was still occupied, BR is out.

[Edited by aevans410 on May 16th, 2005 at 10:55 AM]

correct, this is a TOP issue.

Sorry but the umpires were boneheads on this call. First base is still occupied, unless by some chance, the runner REACHED second base BEFORE the pitcher RELEASED the ball.

We've had the same call made around here for years, with the same old ignorant blues spreading this myth to just as ignorant coaches...

This is not a judgement call and is a protest waiting to happen.

Correct me if I am wrong, but does the Federation not define the TOP when the pitcher commits to pitch, not when he releases the ball.

You are correct sir!

I should change my response to when the pitch was being delivered to avoid confusion.

LDUB,

I believe that you have identified a subtle distinction that is correct - whether FED or OBR.

The "TOP occupied base" is the last base that the runner had legally touched or passed at the time that the pitcher <b>initiated</b> his delivery.

Now 99% of the time it's not going to matter. But, a lot of strange things can happen in a baseball game, and it's not inconceivable that you will find yourself umpiring in a game where the "1%" <b>does</b> happen. It's best to have a proper understanding.

JM

In FED:
2-28-3 "Time of the pitch is when the pticher has committed himself to delivering the pitch to the batter".
Rule goes on to define the difference between windup and set.

It's not just ignorant blues who call it this way. There are some ignorant former professional players who believe this as well.

Last year, a well-know former MLB player who coaches an elite travel team put up a $100 protest fee to protest the very same call described in the first message of this thread. He made the same claim: R1 is stealing, therefore, first base is unoccupied. He even went as far as to say that he had a well-known former MLB umpire on speed dial on his cell phone and we could clear this up right away.

Of course, he lost the protest and his protest fee, but I doubt $100 meant much to him anyway.

MLB players are paid to play, not to know the rules. There are a couple of former players in Spokane who coach and there are no coaches less cognizant about the rules than those fence posts.

One pitched in the Majors for years and still argues that a jump turn is disengaging from the rubber.

"One pitched in the Majors for years and still argues that a jump turn is disengaging from the rubber."

I wonder how many times he was balked? And still hasn't learned. Oh, well.

Bob

Funny you should ask.

When, at the Desert Classic last November, I mentioned his name and his opinion of the jump turn to Jim Evans, all I got in return was a devilish smile and the comment, "Oh, yeah, pitched for the Mariners...I remember him."

I wonder how these morons would call this then...

R1, 1 out. U3K, R1 stealing. Catcher throws down to get R1. Throw beats runner with F4 standing on the base, but runner beats tag.

In Idiotland, where BR can run on plays where R1 is stealing, wouldn't the steal then become a force play?