Of all the conversations we have had regarding LL umpires, I never really understood where some of you were coming from.

I see now!

Had 3 games yesterday, 13-15 yo, using LL rules. This is a private league and yes, we get paid.

I show up to the field and see the director talking to another guy who had on dark grey slacks, solid blue shirt with collar, black reboks (old and dirty) and a black Nike hat. I ask the director who I would be calling with. Yeh, you guessed it. I even offered him one of my shirts and hat so we could look like a team out there, he declined.

Anyway, first game I give him the plate. He was verbally calling swinging strikes, saying "ball 1-2-3", giving the count backwards, 2strikes, 1ball also showing balls on his right hand. First play of the game I have is a not so close play at 3rd. R2 stealing, safe by a mile with no real tag applied. I come up with that, ya know, nonchalant safe signal when I hear "SAFE". ???
I thought I was hearing things, so I just overlooked it. Two batters later B1 hits to SS who throws BR out by 10 steps, same thing. I come up, close my fist, and I hear "OUT".

I told him if you want to call this game yourself, I can go home and still get paid. No more problems with that, but I think he was timid after that because he wouldn't even call a ball foul.

On the bases, he was calling outs with thumb out, calling "time" with a closed fist, and making calls before there was even a play being made. More on this later.

Now I understand he obviously had not been trained very well, so I offered him some advise early on in the first game, which he did not seem to want. So I let him continue in his ways.

Just when I thought I had seen everything an umpire could possibly do wrong in a game, I see this:

2nd game I have the dish. At coaches meeting, my p comes out wearing a, yeh you guessed it, a BIG ball bag. NOT a normal ball bag, this one looked like a granny pack, velcro and all. After the meeting, I asked him WTF you have in there, lunch?

Well, after a couple plays, I now know what was in there.
Play 1: Ball goes foul down 1st base line. He pulls a ball out, throws it back to the pitcher, and retrieves the ball from F3.

Play 2: R1 stealing 2nd, the throw, the slide, the tag, "SAFE". R2 calls time. P calls "time", with his fist up I might add, when he then reached into his "belt pack", pull out a brush and dusts off the base.

Boy it was a long day!

Sorry for the long post, but had to share.

Good thing about this experience though, I realize now that I am NOT a LL umpire! :)

Thanks for listening!

Heh. Thanks for sharing.

What's so funny? Sounds like a typical Little League umpire to me. No, on second thought, he was better than average.

thumpferee,
I have seen that guy work.
mick

Gee, when we stereotype LL umpires, this kind of guy is probably the first guy that comes to mind.

You know what? That's a bunch of crap.

I must have worked with his cousin here in my neck of the woods on Saturday. I had seen this guy work some and heard all of the stories about his shall we say "antics". Well, they are true. On one occasion, and we are using OBR here, he refused to go to me on check swing request because "I was in the C slot". After I explained to him that he had to go to me with the appeal, he said" Oh well, he definitely didn't go around". Trouble was it was the first check in a while that I was going to reverse.

He indicated the location of every ball he called with his hands (often the right). He literally danced behind the catcher at times like he thought he was going to get clobbered (most weren't even close). On one such occasion he called the pitch a strike. His balls and strikes judgement wasn't that bad, but you could have never made me beleive his plate work gave him a shred of consistency.

I could go on and on. I actually was worried that he would blow me off when I tried to offer him some advice. Instead, he told me that he welcomed constructive criticism. Since he was working the next game with a different partner and I was leaving, I couldn't have kept him around for the hour plus I needed to offer up some advice.

Lawrence

13-17 year old pony league last year.

My normal partner for some reason had to cancel. The coordinator called me and told me to be ready to take the dish, he had a new umpire ready to work with me. This kid (no more than 16) shows up in a basketball jersey, knee length shorts, and high tops. I'm doing a quick check of the infield (this field is known for a hangout for drinking teens, there could be bits of glass or metal in the field) and this kid comes up to me. I try to show him the IFF signals I use, he's talking to one of the coaches. I knew then and there that I was in for a long night.

R1, nobody on, inside pitch that gets the batter in the hands. I send him to first. My BU comes to me and says (loud enough for everyone to hear him) Sir, thats not right. He then proceeds to tell me the hands are part of the bat, and its a foul ball. Of course, the fans hear this, and they all start the "hands are part of the bat" chatter. I politely told him to go back to his position and to please not state his opinion of my calls.

This league used last years FED rules. R2 and R3, tied game 6th inning. Pitcher (LH) while in the stretch, turns his shoulders towards 3rd. I balk it. My BU tells me that isn't a balk (while yelling from c position, at least he knew where to stand) and his shoulders can move until he comes set. I tell him, in OBR , yes, but we're using Federation rules. He proceeds to tell me that he's been doing this for 2 years now, and he knows the rules. I just shake my head, call time, go out and tell him to keep his mouth shut, make the calls in the field, and I'll handle the rules interpretations.



[Edited by aevans410 on May 16th, 2005 at 12:54 PM]

All these stories are mind boggling to me. Our association supplies umpires to all levels of baseball in our area (Central NY State). I am certified to do varsity ball but also do little league. Our umpires are not permitted to work any games that are not assigned by our assigners. We are not permitted to work with anyone who is not an active member of our association. We are required to be assigned to a minimum of 22 summer league games to be eligible for varsity baseball the following season. Little league is considered summer ball. I also need to know why you umpires are working with someone for little league. Our assigner doesn't find the need to assign two umpires for little league. There is no need for two umpires in a normal little league game.

Opportunity missed
 

Sounds like a great opportunity to educate this young 16-year old wanna-be and several of the fans.

Throw a bat out on the ground and say, "Show me the hands on that one." Loud enough so that everyone else can also hear, of course. :D

"That's right. The hands are part of the body, not the bat. And if the ball hits any part of the body, including the hands, we have a dead ball. And, if the batter wasn't judged to have swung at the pitch, he gets 1st."

"Now if you will let me call my stuff - anything to do with the batter and the pitcher, I'll try not to interrupt your calls on the bases.";)

Re: Opportunity missed
 

Originally posted by aevans410
My BU comes to me and says (loud enough for everyone to hear him) Sir, thats not right. [/QUOTE]


Throw a bat out on the ground and say, "Show me the hands on that one." Loud enough so that everyone else can also hear, of course. :D

[/QUOTE]

That's a delicious thought, DownTownTonyBrown.
But I won't be showing up my partner, or anyone else's partner in a public forum.
mick

"Had 3 games yesterday, 13-15 yo, using LL rules. This is a private league and yes, we get paid. "

Guess what? That wasn't Little League.

LL gets a huge crossection of umpires. By definition, it's the parents obligation to umpire these games. And yes, you get a lot of yahoos. I work LL, and all sorts of youth leagues. LL is far better, as far as education and resources go. The best crew I've ever worked with, outside of D1 umpires, is with a LL district out of LA. These guys were so polished you'd swear they working a game in front of 50,000 fans.

LL is just an easy punching bag for some. Me, I'd never say that most Fed umpires look like hobos. Nope, you'll not catch me saying the only guys who can work 3pm high school games are the jobless, ex-felons and the under employed. That's not right. But boy, since my son has been in high school, I've seen a lot these guys working games lately. But I won't stereotype them, not me.

Now, if you want to talk about softball umpires.......

I don't know why some people feel the need to bash based on what age level people call. Personally, I have called anywhere from machine pitch to 18u state tournaments. I'd rather stick to 15 and under...mainly because of the attitude of the kids once they get older than that. Our park has one 18 year old team, only because last year they had two and nearly forfeited every game because the kids don't care one way or another. So this year they forced them to carry a full roster of 18 players so they'd have a better chance of playing.

As long as an umpire cares about what kind of job he does and always looks to improve his performance, it shouldn't matter if it's eight year old minors or college ball.

Do you think any of the kids playing that game gave a rats a55 the he dusted the bases or overstepped his bounds on a couple of calls. They could care less. Did they have fun? If they did, that is all that matters. If any of this persons actions impacted your precious ego then that is your issue. It appears the only one on the field who was offended was you!!!

I am a director in a town who's little league program is 130 kids if we are lucky. We have even less volunteers. About 10 regulars who do everything, concessions, field maintenance, coach, administer and yes, umpire. You have to take what you can get when you can't afford to pay for "commercial" umpires.

Heres an idea... How about volunteering to run clinics for these folks instead of b1tching all the time!!! You are more than welcome to come to my town and put one on.

We try to train our volunteers as best we can but I would need an 8th day of the week to schedule something.

I would rather take someone who keeps the game fair and shows up in jeans and a t-shirt any day than have to cancel a game the kids are looking forward to because we have no one to umpire.

Keep in in friggin perspective folks. Not everyone is perfect like you guys!!!

[Edited by cmckenna on May 16th, 2005 at 09:15 PM]

You're too sensitive, Rich. There is a world of difference between umpires such as you, who work upper levels of ball and then some Little League and the average Little League umpire. This guy would fit right in with the Little League umpires here. Unlike some areas I read about on this site, here they had no training, and when offered training, they didn't show up. The UIC is a dad appointed by the board who had never umpired a game in his life.

They wear their hats backwards, chest protectors over their t-shirts and shinguards with their shorts. They move on every pitch and call pitches when they almost reach the front of the plate. With runners on third, they follow the batter all the way to first. They, too, signal out using the thumb. They never put the ball in play they pull out their rule books to check how many bases to award on a throw into deadball territory. I know, I watch my friends kids play frequently and I have see the above in nearly every LL game I watch.

These guys not only exist Rich, in many areas they are the norm.

You, sir are an exception to many of us. You may not be in Madison, but you would be in Spokane.

<b>Do you think any of the kids playing that game gave a rats a55 the he dusted the bases or overstepped his bounds on a couple of calls. They could care less. Did they have fun? If they did, that is all that matters. </b>

This thinking is what produces high school players and coaches who think the hands are part of the bat and home plate is foul territory.

If fun is all that matters, get rid of the coaches and parents, give them a wheel barrow of candy and soda and an X-box.

Does the phrase "anything worth doing is worth doing right" mean anything to you?

Huh... I don't recall any mention in the ORIGINAL POSTERS message where he stated that the person he worked with got any of the calls wrong or mis applied any rules, just that he stepped on somebody's ego.

So what you are saying is that it is more important how the umpires look and that they don't step on any big dogs toes that it is for the kids to have fun. How many of these LL players go on to play a highr level anyway? I know from our league we are lucky if 1 or 2 from each year continue on to play at a higher level.

Why didn't you address any of my other points garth, like having a volunteer spirit and using your knowledge and expertise to help your youth leagues.

I do High School basketball and guess what... Every Saturday and Sunday during basketball season, I go and run the floor with the 4th and 5th grade rec players in our town for free so that they can have their games.

I'll preface this with saying that, with respect to umpiring, I agree with you, Garth.

But I heard a variant of that expression recently: "anything worth doing is worth doing badly." I'm a bad pianist, but it's worth doing all the same.

I would say that the difference with umpiring is: when you screw up the game (or umpiring) badly enough, it's no longer even baseball. Part of learning a team sport is discipline, which can't be approximated by ignoring the rules.

That's why I agree with Garth's application of his phrase to baseball, even if it lacks application more generally.

1. I responded to your comment: "Did they have fun? If they did, that is all that matters" and I stand by my response.

2. I have found over the past 30 years that most umpires who look and work as described by the original poster make calls and rulings in similar fashion.

3. I volunteered my time to train youth umpires and coaches for five years. The umpires that bothered to show up progressed so much faster than those that didn't they got tired of working with them, graduated to high level ball and no longer do youth ball.

4. I have been involved with youth organizations for the past 30 years. I volunteer at my church and service organizations. No need to lecture my about volunteering just because I decide not to volunteer my umpiring.

Thanks for your input.


[Edited by GarthB on May 16th, 2005 at 11:43 PM]

I have a degree in Music, but I, too, am a poor pianist. (My major was percussion and music education) However, when I screw up a 12 bar blues progression, a kid doesn't get sent back to first, called out or ejected.

Exactly.

... and you don't have to worry about some parents yelling at you about your ability etc.,

My 7 year old is now playing and he's asked me on several occasions about the umpire's calls. "dad why did they call him safe when I tagged him before he got to the bag?"

Contrary to some opinions the kids do know the difference even at a young age.

I have yet to "enlighten" my son that the umpires don't hustle, don't get in position and don't care,

so far I've just told him that the umpire must have not seen him tag him first, or that the umpire couldn't see it from where he was.

But they notice, and for sure the parents do.

Thanks
David

I agree
 

with David B. My son has been playing for awhile now (he's eleven), and I have explained to him(and his teammates) that the umpires in our league are all reluctant volunteers recruited from the ranks of the parents. I tell them to remember that these guys are not trained umpires, so that when there are bad calls, just forget it and move on. I also tell them that over time the bad calls even out for and against.

I have also been able to turn this into a positive. I have been telling my son that since these volunteers call balls and strikes inconsistently, when you have two strikes against you, don't give the umpire the chance to call a third strike. This year he's beginning to understand what I mean, and is now becoming more aggressive and tough to get out, even with two strikes.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cmckenna

I am a director

[Edited by thumpferee on May 17th, 2005 at 05:56 AM]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by thumpferee

Quote:

Originally posted by cmckenna I am a director [Edited by thumpferee on May 17th, 2005 at 05:56 AM]

What does taking this completly out of context do for any of the above conversation? Other than make your reply useless.

Garth,

I am not arguing the point about training, I feel training is very important and I wish I had more time to get more myself. It was easier for my basketball training because it was done at a time of the year when I was not so busy.

The point I was trying to make is that there are some organizations that do not have the benefit of having thousands of people to draw from nor the financial resources to provide professional umpires at this level. You have to take what you can get. We do our best to provide the teams with the best quality we can. Would we like to have better, sure but dreams don't always come true.

I take everything I learn here as well as what I learn from talking to those who are higher level umpires and attempt to apply it every time. I agree that there are some who don't want to learn and think they know it and can do it.

It's just that every time someone mentions LL on here, it is a broad generalization. Maybe someday someone on here will have the nads enough to post a story about a good experience they had working a LL game. But it is always easier to bash.

I am sure no one on here can say that they were perfect their first time out.

As far as what I said about keeping it in perspective... that was in reference to calling an out with the thumb... If the call was right, do you think anyone other than the other ump really cared that he used his thumb ???

Some general comments on this overall thread.

The premise of the original post in this thread seems to be something along the lines of "I never understood why so many of you guys stereotype Little League umpires as clueless nimrods until I worked with this guy yesterday, yada yada yada, and now I understand..."

As my 9th grade English teacher Mrs. Byrd taught me so many years ago, stereotyping is a lazy man's way to forming an opinion on just about anything and everything. Are there nimrod Little League umpires? Yes, of course there are, for a whole host of logical reasons. But the truth is, and we see evidence of this ALL THE TIME, there are nimrod umpires working at every level - the "hobos" Kyle mentioned working high school ball (that was a great post, Kyle), the the NCAA D1 umpires who botched a simple batter interference call on live national TV the other day, and the list goes on and on.

As a participant and observer of the Little League program on both a macro and micro level for about 15 years now, my observation is that Little League has made and continues to make reasonable progress in improving its program in a number of areas, most notably with rule changes that in general are "mainstreaming" it to be more consistent with "real baseball" rules, and secondly with respect to its umpire development program. Simply comparing the quality of umpiring in the televised games - regional championships and LLWS games - over the last 8 years or so since they've been televised, shows a clear and significant improvement in the quality of the umpiring.

Little League is unique among national youth baseball programs in the establishment of formal umpire training programs in each of its 8 U.S. regions. Many of them aren't perfect (and in my experience some of them are next to worthless, so far) but at least it's a start, and it's more of a start than any other youth program.

Anyone who knows me knows I am frequently an outspoken and politically-incorrect, overly-blunt critic of some of Little League's decisions and overall operation. When I criticize it, though, I stick to SPECIFICS and name names, rather than painting everybody in the LL hierarchy with a broad, general brush of incompetence.

The stereotyping and general bashing of "LL umpires" in this thread reminds me of the Saturday Night Live character the Church Lady, doing her little Superior Dance.

This is a common thread on this board and frankly, I don't understand why. I am a baseball Dad and an umpire. I have watched as much youth baseball as I have officiated. My son never played LL. I don't know LL rules nor have I ever umpired a LL game. I have never seen nor had as a partner the person described in the original post.

We have travelled throughout TX and bordering states attending youth baseball tournaments (USSSA, Super Series,
Triple Crown) and with few exeptions the umps have been excellent. Well trained and professional. And I will add that the organization that I work for holds these same standards.

The worst umpiring I have seen so far in all 10 yrs that my son has been playing organized baseball have been HS JV umpires by any comparison without question!


Mike

1. so if they care less (which I dispute..whoever heard of LL parents who "didnt care less" LOL) , NO ONE at any of your games EVER complains about any umpire error...wow, what a nice environment that must be...I certainly will come and call games in that fantasy world...I wont have to worry about any mechanics or rules!

2. I have little confidence in your 'training' program if it comes from an attitude like this.

3. how can your 'umpires' "keep the game fair" if they dont know the rules and/or dont know proper procedures and mechanics?? Oh, I forGOT......no one complains about umpire mistakes in your world! I bet you have nothing to do! :)

4. My "friggin" perspective is fine. Yours appears to come from excessive defensiveness....as in most things, its not that 'you cant afford good umpires,' your parents simply will not pay for them. You generally get what you pay for...but if you are frustrated because you are not given the funds to hire better-trained umps, dont vent at us. You know where the cyber-door is ;)

<i> Originally posted by thumpferee

Of all the conversations we have had regarding LL umpires, I never really understood where some of you were coming from. </i>

IMO, it's nothing to do with the phrase "LL Umpire" I tend to group umpires in the following categories.

1. "Money Only" - This group at least in Amateur Baseball is propbaly the largest. These types of umpires are in a way an assignor's dream meaning they will go anywhere as long as they get paid. They could care less what type of rating they get or what coaches think etc. Do the game and get paid.

The reason I say Assignor's "dream" is that depending upon your area there are all types of leagues and umpires are at a minimum so an assignor knows he can count on this particular group to cover the games that the more talented umpires do not want.

2. "Prestige / Power" - This group fits more with LL/Babe Ruth in that the umpire simply wants to be recognized as someone in Control,etc. Not really interested in learning the rules but simply "Hey I'm the umpire and what I say goes"

3. Having Fun and wanting to Learn - This type of umpire is willing to learn and improove him/herself. No ego to bruise but wants to do a good job. Don't get me wrong - this group also likes the pay however they are willing to work for it. This group of umpires are normally the ones who get a good brand of baseball. Legion, HS playoffs (sometimes), etc.

I don't want to break it down further but umpires are also refereed to as

A. "By the Book"
B. Common sense
C. Combination of both

Based on one thread, I do not know what kind of category to put your partner in but I recommend talking to him after the game to see if he is REALLY interested in umpiring or was "thrown in the jungle" because no one else wanted to.

I started in LL and IMO it was good for me. I learned my mistakes and also learned the rules because in LL you will see all kinds of things.

IMO, what's missing today is a real good mentoring program. I was fortunate that when I became HS certified I worked quite often with a veteran official who taught me the ropes not only in the mechanics / rules but in Game Management which is IMO the "nuts and bolts of umpiring"

To sum up, there are "Smitty's" in just about every level of umpring. I'm sure Joe West "paid his dues" but I do not like his umpiring skills in dealing with major league ball-players.

Pete Booth

What I was trying to say is...
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cmckenna

Quote:

Originally posted by thumpferee Quote: Originally posted by cmckenna I am a director [Edited by thumpferee on May 17th, 2005 at 05:56 AM] What does taking this completly out of context do for any of the above conversation? Other than make your reply useless.

Your replies regarding officiating are useless!

Out of context? You said I was B1tching instead of offering to conduct clinics. We are not volunteers! We get paid! The same I might add.

I study every rule set daily. I take pride in how I look and in my knowledge of the game. I have 6 shirts, 2 pairs of pants, 2 masks, 6 ball bags, 2 chest protectors, 2 pairs of plate shoes, 4 hats, 2 pairs of base shoes(one for turf one for grass) I study mechanics and stand by my partner.

But for you it is ok to have an official wear jeans and a tee shirt in your league and think he is FAIR and knowledgable?

I think you're taking his words out of context and twisting them. If your Little League is all volunteer, then you'd rather have an unskilled volunteer who is doing his best than no volunteer at all.

That is exactly the point.

Speaking for myself only, I was not posting about stereotypes. I was posting about the LL umpires I have personally watched work games.

As I said, I understand there are better LL umpires than what I witnessed. You, Dave, and Rich Fronheiser are at the other extreme. I assume there are many in between.

No need to be hypersensitive. I would never claim that all LL umpires are like what we have in Spokane. I know the WR works hard to try to train LL umpires. But not one from Spokane has attended.

Not one LL that I have seen locally (and I've only seen about half their crew) even have a uniform. Not one cares. They are all volunteers who sneer at the local high school and college umpires as "mercenaries". The only ones doing the superior dance here are the volunteers. Again, do not mistake what I am describing as the universal LL umpire. No stererotyping, just reporting on what I see.

We are all products of own experiences. Your's, as it relates to Little League, has been far superior to mine. But that doesn't mean mine is invalid. Just different. If it bothers you to hear it, I'll not post about it again.

For the record, I didn't stereotype anyone either, I shared a story of an experience with a partner in a PONY LEAGUE game, where (around here at least) the umpiring is expected to be better.

Although, when I show up to a LL game in my high school blues, I'm held to a higher standard by the leagues, the coaches, and the parents. When one of these guys blows a call, they get the "hes doing his best" routine. When I ring up a batter on a great pitch on the corner, you would have thought I just sat there on home plate and killed a puppy. I'm the worst human being on the face of the earth at that particular moment. These guys are making the same amount of money that I am.

I tried to hold a mini clinic for the local little league umpire squad this year. Not the same town I umpire in, my son plays in the local league and I don't want that conflict of interest. Exactly 1 out of 10 showed up. They had 3 weeks notice. The coaches told me his umpiring improved 100 percent afterwards.

Volunteering ones time for the kids and showing up for a paycheck are 2 different things. The LL umpires that show up thinking they know everything, won't take criticism or instruction and missaply the rules on a regular basis are the ones we are talking about here.

We all have had plenty of good experiences in LL, a lot more than bad. The problem is they seem to run together, especially if you do a lot of games like most of us do. The bad stuff sticks in our minds because it usually drags out, where the good moments pass quickly.

[Edited by aevans410 on May 18th, 2005 at 07:43 AM]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GarthB

Quote:

They are all volunteers who sneer at the local high school and college umpires as "mercenaries".

In other venues I've written extensively about the Little League "true believers" who do indeed contribute greatly to the holier-than-thou reputation Little League and its participants have in the eyes of many. I don't deny their existence; however, I do dispute the notion that they dominate the overall Little League program.

I didn't think you were one of the ones doing the Superior Dance, by the way.