I am PU, we have R1 and R2. Ground ball to F6. F6 tosses to F4 at second. BU verbally calls R1 out, but then sees F4 bobble ball, and give a safe signal. Now the fun, I am slightly up the 3B line, initially watching for any FPSR violation at 2B. I see the bobble, see the safe signal, then notice that R2 is rounding 3B. F4 gets control of the ball and tosses to F5. Now we have a possible rundown, F5 tosses to F2, but F2 is slow to get ball back to F5 and R2 slides into 3B. After a quick glance at BU I moved up and got position to call R2 safe at 3B. As I walk back toward home, I check the other runners and only see a runner at second. I look further and see a runner walking toward the dugout about 10' from 1B foul line. Stupid me, I think this runner is the kid that hit the ball to F6. My mind is trying to understand why he is not at 1B. Here is where I had to make a split second decision, because both opposing coaches are yelling at their players. I call runner walking toward dugout, out for abandoning his base, and leave R2 and third and R1 at second. Here comes defensive coach, wanting me to call R1 out for passing preceding runner. It is only now that I realize that the kid walking into the dugout was R1 and when he heard the original verbal out, he began to walk off the field. R1 did not see the nonverbal safe signal. I did not see R1 walking of field since I had the play along 3B line. So, pulling it out of my a$$, I told defensive coach, that the R1 was out for abandonment and when the BR passed him, he was already out. This is why BR could not be called out for passing R1. Defensive coach was fine with it, and offensive coach was just glad his BR was on 2B. No harm, no foul.

Any suggestions as to how I should of handled this? I felt bad that I did not know R1 was the kid walking to the dugout, but I was preoccupied with the potential rundown.

Could this be a case where the erroneous (verbal) call by the umpire put the player in jeopardy? If so - it is the umpire's responsibility to put things right --- in this case, R1 back to 2nd, BR back to 1st.

MC, that is very possible. The next inning the offensive coach told me that his runner thought he was out. But based on what I had available to me at the time of the call, I did not assume that. Maybe I should have. My attention was directed at R2 almost immediately after I saw BU give the safe signal.

Not to be critical, but if I had been BU, I would not have made the out call until I allowed the play at second to be completed and if I had made the out call, I would of louldly verbalized that the runner was safe. But the guy I was working with did not do that. Like I said, I felt bad about it, but my responsibilites took me elsewhere and could not stay with runner at second.

162 people viewed this post and one responded, interesting. Thought I might get some great feedback, guess I was wrong.

http://www.deephousepage.com/smilies/sad2.gif

mcrowder gave you great feedback without ripping on you for losing focus. ;)
mick

Scyguy, you took it upon yourself to make a final decisions without discussing it with your partner. Had the both of you gotten together, you probably would have been able to sort out who was who.

When I am in doubt with something on the field , I will check with my partner to make sure we are in sync and then we can go from there.Yesterday, during a Varsity game, there was a flyball down the left field line, PU responsibilty. I get into the infield and see what looks like the outfielder put his glove up to catch the ball. He then turns around and chases it to the fence. The ball is thrown in and the fielder comes running saying that the ball was under the fence and should be dead. He says that he put his arms up to signal. I check with my partner just in case he saw something I didn't see. We both agree that what the player said was NOT what we saw, and leave the runners as they are. We communicated to make sure that we both had all the information necessary, then from that a final decision was made. Communicate, communicate.

I agree with mc, this is probably one of those situations that should have been rectified by the officials, to correct your partners poor communications.

mick,
I want to learn what I could of done to keep this from happening again. Do you agree with killing ball and placing runners at first, second and third? Also, with my focus on the rundown, how could I have been more aware of the situation at second?

1) You could HAVE been BU instead of PU.

2) That's probably what I would have done. Your alternative (abandoment, no out for passing) was acceptable.

3) Maybe, with more experience, you'd see this happening. But, once you needed to focus on the rundown, you have to give something up.

Nothing wrong with YOU (PU) not seeing this. BU should have seen this though.

However, once you realized something was odd - you should have talked to each other. You'd have realized (likely) that it was BU's bad call that put the runner in danger, and I'm confident you would have fixed it at that point.

jcone,
So I should of killed it, not made an initial ruling, discussed with partner, then made a ruling. Ok, that makes good sense. Thanks.

Now, if we decided that we needed to place runners at first, second and third, I'm sure the defensive coach would express that a safe call was made and that nobody knows (but the runner) why runner abandoned second. Our only defense would be that the BU did not verbalize the call. I must admit that I am uncomfortable with this. Again, I am not arguing with this approach, I'm not ignoring the advice that MC gave me, I am only saying that a call was made, the offensive coach saw it and he should of communicated with his runner to stay at second. If I was the coach, I would of been yelling at my runner to stay at second. Bottom line is the kid abandoned the base, for whatever reason, and it seems he should be out for doing it. This is just my thoughts, but I obviously could be wrong.

Just read the posts after I typed the above information. Guys don't take me the wrong way I am not trying to argue, but do most of you think we should of placed runners at first, second and third? If so, then I will deal with defensive coach and explain that the miscommunication by BU caused runner to abandon base. If this is right, then I will sale it and hopefully he will accept it or else.

[Edited by scyguy on May 12th, 2005 at 10:02 AM]

<font color = white>scyguy - "So, pulling it out of my a$$...."</font>

scyguy,
Well, R2 had already acquired 3B.
BR wisely took second when he saw 2B empty [<I>BR probably only heard the Out!, also.</I>].
So, now we have the desertion. Whenever we have have a desertion we must ask ourselves, "Huh?".

Both umpires knew there was originally momentary confusion on the bobble and both umpires assumed "Safe". Now, ["<I>My mind is trying to understand why... </I>"] for no apparent reason, a runner is deserting and soon the Defensive coach inadvertently is solving our problem by giving us information that had evaded us.

Since we now have new information (that BR did not desert, but that it was R1), the crew has to talk. We re-think. We ask, "Huh ?".
We hopefully realize there was no "Safe call" only the "Out call" and the "safe signal". We get both managers together.

We explain that we signalled safe but did not verbalize, "Safe"! We explain that R1 had reached 2B safely, that BR did nothng wrong seeing 2B empty because of our shortcoming, that there was no continuous action on anyone except R2 at 3B. We put R1 back on 2B because he did nothing wrong. We put BR back to 1B because he did nothing wrong and should not be penalized. We explain and apologize. We , "Play!"

Even though the initial call was made it was made without all the information. We do not reach into our back pocket after we have new information.

Of course, if we do not glean *All* the information until well after the play, the inning, the game, then it is what it is.

Like jicecone implied, "Let's talk." Let's ask, Huh?"

mick

Defensive coach might be upset at placing the runner he thought was out back on base. You may have to explain to him that the Verbal "OUT" call followed by the non-verbal safe signal put the runner at jeopardy through no fault of the runner. And you might have to tell him that BY RULE, if an umpire's mistaken call or mishandling of a call places anyone (runners OR defense) at jeopardy, the umpire has a RESPONSIBILITY (not just an option) to fix it.

If he doesn't like that - he can go grumble about it. I believe most coaches, while probably still upset at the call, will see the logic and justice in what you are doing.

This is the feedback I was hoping for. Thanks guys. I will say that I don't think I lost focus during the play, but do admit that I should of discussed with BU. I should of been smart enough to correct the situation when I learned that the kid walking to the dugout was R1.
Discussing situations on the forum has definitely made me a better umpire and I want to thank you guys for that.

I hate to be mr. grammar person, but it's "... should HAVE been smart ..."

yea but aren't there degrees of smart? LOL Your comment implies that there was never any smartest to begin with (which also might be the case).

For example I'm smart, but should of been smart enough (a bit more insightful) to deal with this situation.

:)

What?

The phrase is not "should of". It's "should have". That's his point. I completely fail to understand your response to Bob. Maybe you 'should of' read his post more clearly - it was entirely grammar-related.

1. Who says yea nowadays? I believe you meant to say "yeah".
2. Your second sentence makes no sense at all.

You just did it again.

No, there's no "should of been smart." It's "should have been smart enough." Yours is a version of the spoken phrase "shoulda been smart," which is a conversational contraction of "should have." But it's not grammatically correct. Now back to the countdown! ;)

:)

okay, I was just trying to be funny, I was not trying to start something. I apologize for my poor grammar. I misunderstood where the grammar mistake occurred. I thought it was directed at the "smart enough" part, not the "of" instead of "have". I misread and interpreted the comment to imply that you were either smart or not smart and that smart enough was inappropriate. Please forgive my grammatical error.

"Should've would've worked fine...

It would also help that if you make a verbal out call followed by a safe sign that you very emphatically sell this call verbally, and repeatedly, SAFE, SAFE and repeat the safe sign. Then the runner will not be so inclined to leave for the dugout.

Was the bobble due to a transfer? I take it there was only 1 or no outs and the possibility of a double play and the very real possibility that it was on the transfer. As PU watching for the FPSR you could have helped with that if the BU kicked it as being on the transfer.
In either case seems to me there was some poor timing on the BU part and he needed to stand up and fix his error, not have you fix it for him. Yes on the DP you will make that out call a little faster than normal but still slow enough you could see a straight dropping of the ball or a drop on the transfer and still make that one call of safe or out (on the trasnfer drop, of course you want to re-emphasise that the runner is still out with "He's out! He's out, He's still out!)

as stated earlier if I was BU I would of done what DG suggested. As far as the bobble, it was not on the transfer. 2B never got control of ball from what I could tell. The whole situation should of be avoided, but once the mistake was made, then we have to try and correct.

Let me ask you guys, say you run into either of these coaches down the road. Do you discuss the situation and possibly admit that all three runners should of been placed back on the bases? Both of these coaches are reasonable people and I know them well. But, does this matter? Should you ever discuss past occurrences with coaches? Does it make you look inadequate or does it show you investigated the situation to try and find out the right ruling. Remember, I am only talking about the "freak" situations that very seldom come up in a game.

All coaches are not equal.
Do what feels good at the time.

If pressed, tell them it bothered you, too, and that is why you further explored the results of the play.
mick