An Exception to IIITBTSB??
 

I didn't see the game but according to the Washington Post article, with runners on second and third, LHP Kline balked when he checked the runner at second. Plate umpire Davidson called the balk and later said, "He moved his shoulder to deceive the runner."

Anyone know what balk rule was violated? I can't think of one.

Do we have an exception to "It is impossible to balk to second base."??

ChapJim,

I believe it is an 8.05(c) violation. That is, in the umpire's judgement, the "legally set" pitcher <b>started</b> to make a move towards 2B and failed to complete the "direct step" required on a feint to 2B.

I saw a replay of the balk on ESPN last night and couldn't for the life of me see what the pitcher did wrong. Of course, I'm not a MLB umpire and the guy who called it is.

JM

Considering that the angle was from behind the pitcher not sure could see what happen or did not happen. All you could see is that Kline broke his hands. You could not see what his front shoulder before he stepped off the pitching rubber. That is very key in that call.

Peace

Nope,
 

The balk was identified as a "flex" of the shoulder.

The balk would have been for NOT throwing the pitch to the plate.

I do believe that the camera angle used by all highlight shows is not catching what "might" have been an action with the front shoulder.

Plus it wouldn't be "Balk A Day Bob" if this wasn't called.

IIITBTSB

The shoulder flex was the beginning of his move and his committment to pitch to home. When he did not, it was a balk, but it was not a balk to second. IIITBTSB 99.9% of the time.

BALK!
 

If there was ever a technical balk called, this is one.

I watched it 6 times on ESPN and the first 5 times I saw nothing. The last time I saw a twitch, and then Kline stepped off, busted!

I personally wouldn't have called it a balk in a million years!

Game tied, balk in the winning run? PU got balls!

Who has this in their signature? Need an out, call an out. Need a run, balk it in.

Re: BALK!
 

cowboyfan1 has the signature you spoke of

Ok, call me stupid, but what is IIITBTSB? thanks!

U of I Blue,

"It Is Impossible To Balk To Second Base"

Actually, it's <b>almost</b> impossible.

JM

Nope.
 

There is no need for "almost" . . .

Tim,

What would you call this?

R1 only. RHP, who has legally come set, turns and throws to 2B in the mistaken belief that the R1 was attempting to steal 2B. However, the R1 is still at 1B and never even <b>faked</b> that he was going to go to 2B.

Reference:

"<i><b>8.05</b>
If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when_ ...(d) The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play; ... </i>"

Personally, I'd call it a "balk to second base". I think "almost" (or "nearly", or something like that) is required for the aphorism to be correct.

JM

Well,
 

Pretty simple really:

If the RH Pitcher turned towards first base he then balked for failing to throw to first.

If the RH pitcher turned towards third base he then balked for failing to complete the pitch.

While it is technically true that the balk is worded for throwing to an unoccupied base the violation is really one of the two that I listed.

Do I get parting gifts?

Tim,

Pretty good. I still think 8.05(d) is certainly more "on point" in the situation described above and it <b>is</b> a "balk to second", but you are correct that the move I described could also be balked under 8.05(a) or (c), depending on which direction the pitcher turned.

How about this one:

R2 (only) and a RHP has come legally set. In an ill-conceived attempt to pick-off the R2, the pitcher lifts his pivot foot, pivoting off his "free foot" and makes a "snap throw" to 2B, releasing the throw prior to "landing" his pivot foot behind the rubber.

Again, to me, the pitcher has clearly "balked" in making a move to 2B.

JM

And,
 

We are beginning to waste bandwidth.

These type discussions are why some MLB Umpires intone that the internet is where umpires (and coaches I guess) go to practice mental masturbation.

I have never called a balk to second base.

The second play on the April 2004 NCAA video bulletin shows a pitcher balking to second base.

Re: And,
 

I think that translates, roughly, to "yes, OK, fine, that would be a balk to second base."

A feint or throw to attempt to pickoff an R2, without the required step ahead of the feint/throw, would, in the commonly accepted jargon of the game, constitute a "balk to second base."

IIITBTSB is a useful training maxim to rein in the "Balkin' Bob" wannabes. It doesn't need to be completely and totally accurate to fulfill its purpose.

Tim,

I just got done a High School Game here in Canada and just called a balk to second!

F1 with the bases loaded wheeled around and in one motion threw to F4 who was 15ft away from 2nd and a good 60ft from any runner.

Bad call. Being close the bag and making a play is only an issue at 1B.

keep it simple
 

And the rule reference for your call please?

There is a lot of merit to be learned from the saying IIITBTSB. If you are in doubt then don't call it, because its probably a missed call.


If there is a balk involving a runner at second base, then its usually because the pitcher did something illegal as far as the pitch etc., it has nothing to do with his move to second base, (of which just about anything is legal)

Thanks
David

And you called this why?

As long as he STEPPED towards an occupied base, the move is legal. F1 only has to throw to the base (or to a fielder making a play) at first base.

IIITBTSB.

Re: Re: And,
 

Also, recognize that "IIITBTSB" does NOT mean It Is Impossible To Balk While Attempting To Throw Or Feint To Second Base

[Edited by bob jenkins on May 11th, 2005 at 01:48 PM]

Hehehehe,
 

"F1 with the bases loaded wheeled around and in one motion threw to F4 who was 15ft away from 2nd and a good 60ft from any runner."

Not a balk in OBR according to the Evans Video, JEA and J/R.
------------------------------------------------------
Dave Hensley . . . nah David, I have already defended IIITBTSB for seven years.

I will now no longer participate in threads about the issue.

It Is Impossible To Balk To Second Base, period.

I balked it because the step was directed at the 2nd baseman more than 2nd. I guess you could say it wasn't a balk to second but a balk to the 2nd baseman.

Nope:
 

It was neither . . .

What you describe is legal.

There was no balk.

Legal in OBR but not FED. In Fed you must step directly to the base!

I'll type this very slowly and feel free to move your lips as you read.

That is not a balk. Not in OBR, not in NCAA, not in FED, not in NAIA, not in MSBL. Not even in Canada.

[Edited by GarthB on May 11th, 2005 at 02:00 PM]

blue
 

Nah, it is not a balk in FED either.

I am tired and my head hurts.

Come on guys
 

I'm with Tee, my head hurts.

If he steps anywhere behind the rubber that's 2nd.

This is not geometry.

Same with the throw to first, if he gains any ground to first, its considered a step.

Make it easy.

Thanks
David

Seriously
 

I balked a kid in OBR game for throwing to second with no step at all. He twisted his body and snapped a sidearm throw to the bag. Neither foot moved. Was this correct?

Re: Seriously
 

Sounds like it. Good call.

Poor child was born without a spine. That's gotta be rough.

Professional instruction is that if the pitcher steps more towards the base being thrown or feinted to than any other base, then he has fulfilled the requirement for stepping "directly to" the base. In a feint or throw to 2B, he has a 90 foot window that goes from the midway point between 2B and 3B, to the midway point between 2B and 1B, and if he steps and feints or throws within that window, then he's legal.

Neither FED nor NCAA have a rule or an interpretation that would contradict this professional instruction.

Re: Hehehehe,
 

Who was it who said the way out of Vietnam was to declare victory and withdraw our troops?

Re: Re: Hehehehe,
 

Some idiot.

Re: Re: And,
 

Dave,

That's kind of how I took it too. But, I didn't want to get "tossed" for trying to "show up the umpire", so I just dropped it and "returned to my dugout".

At the risk of <b>justifiably</b> being accused of attempting to "resurrect a dead horse", not to mention "irresponsible use of a scarce resource", since it has come up on another thread, I'm going to make <b>one</b> more comment on this subject.

Having thought about it a little more, I just wanted to say the following.

In the final analysis, I believe that <b>your</b> comments regarding "IIITBTSB" are more <b>intelligent</b> than either mine <b>or</b> Tim's.

That is, a proper understanding of what really <b>is</b> or <b>is not</b> a balk is all that really matters. If it helps one individual to have the proper conception of what constitutes a balk to consider "IIITBTSB" an <b>absolute</b> assertion and helps another individual to consider it a <b>nearly</b> absolute assertion, then the <b>end</b> is properly served in both cases.

From everything <b>I've</b> read that Tim has written on the subject, his conception seems quite <b>sound</b>. Though I've never actually seen him umpire a game, it would not surprise me if his proved to be <b>more</b> sound than <b>my own</b>.

Respectfully,

JM

WOW,
 

Trust me JM I make my mistakes in my games (I also make Dave's, Rich's, Garth's, you get the drift).

I work hard at umpiring. I work hard at understanding the intent of rules. I work hard at training umpires.

As a last commnet, I have never seen a balk to second base.

Regards,

wow, post a wee little note on another game and look what happens! :D