Please verify that I'm not a drooling idiot.

[Illini_Ref]

2-2 on the batter. Batter swings at an inside pitch. He hits the ball with his HAND and it rolls foul. CALL PLEASE? Please give me verification that I'm not an bumbling fool. I say strike three, batter's out, ball is dead.

[IAUMP]

While I am not a baseball ump, I have been around the game most of my life. You state that the batter hits the ball with his hand and it rolls foul. I am guessing that the hand was on the bat at the time. Since he swung you can't have a hit batsman. However, since the ball rolled foul, why is it not like every other foul ball with two stikes. Count remains 2-2 and the batter faces another pitch, but has a sore hand this time?

[UmpJM]

Illini_Ref,

Well, I don't really know you well enough to give you a definitive answer to your question ;-) - but, based on your post, I would have to guess that you are not a "drooling idiot".

Your post was certainly clearly written and you certainly made the correct call on the situation you posted - a call that (otherwise) intelligent people often seem to have difficulty understanding the "correctness" of.

(Edited to add the following after seeing IAUMP's reply)

Take IAUMP's reply for example. His clear writing is evidence of his intelligence. Yet, despite having been around baseball for most of his life, he doesn't understand that only batted balls can become "fair" or "foul" balls. Or, maybe he's also a cricket fan and is transposing the cricket rules regarding hands and bats to baseball.

JM

[Edited by CoachJM on May 9th, 2005 at 02:27 PM]

[mcrowder]

Oh. My. God.

Initial poster - you are not a drooling idiot. Dead Ball, Strike Three.

IAUMP - you say you are not a baseball ump. That is clear. What does the moniker "IAUMP" mean? You are obviously not a softball ump either. What would your answer have been had the batter swung and the ball hit the batter's foot? Dead Ball. Strike Three. Right? (I sure hope so). So why the difference between the foot and the hand. (And PLEASE don't say "The hands are part of the bat" --- if you do, you'll be laughed off the site.)

[Tim C]

"However, since the ball rolled foul, why is it not like every other foul ball with two stikes."

Because the ball became dead at the instant it hit the "bat/hands" . . . from that instant on nothing could affect the outcome of the call.

Dead ball and strike is called.

Heffner 4:68

[Edited by Tim C on May 9th, 2005 at 03:14 PM]

[LMan]

if the batter swings and misses the ball, its a strike *no matter what happens next.*

2.00 (a) STRIKE: a legal pitch which is struck at by the batter and is missed.

[aevans410]

Rule 7-2-1b (FED)

A strike is charged to the batter when a pitch is struck at and missed (even if the pitch touches the batter).

[Illini_Ref]

Thanks guys. This happened at my son's game last week (HS Varsity). It was our team at bat. The umpires converged and uttered these dreaded words, "the hands are part of hte bat". I about fell off of the bleachers.

Of course, the parents around me asekd me what the discussion was about. I told them that the umpires just gave the wrong ruling, even though it benefitted our team. I was almost laughed at. They all insisted that the "hands are part of the bat". I just gave up. However, my confidence started waining.

BTW, our coach, who for years was one of hte best umpires in our part of Illinois, was just standing in the third base coaches box grinning from ear to ear. Especially when the kid took the extra swing granted him and promptly deposited a double into left-center field.

[IAUMP]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Oh. My. God.

Initial poster - you are not a drooling idiot. Dead Ball, Strike Three.

IAUMP - you say you are not a baseball ump. That is clear. What does the moniker "IAUMP" mean? You are obviously not a softball ump either. What would your answer have been had the batter swung and the ball hit the batter's foot? Dead Ball. Strike Three. Right? (I sure hope so). So why the difference between the foot and the hand. (And PLEASE don't say "The hands are part of the bat" --- if you do, you'll be laughed off the site.)

mcrowder,

I am a football umpire and was just taking a look at what is going on in the other forums. I found this intreging and thought I would take a shot. As you all have pointed out (in such a tactful way), I was wrong. I know that the hands are not part of the bat. I was simply wrong.

[Illini_Ref]

Ah, IAUMP, but do you fit the FB umpire stereotype? I am a crew chief in Illinois. My crew is lovingly known to the other crews in our association as the "All Umpire Crew". I think that is their way of saying that we all need to get taller AND thinner! Crap, I bet our Back Judge can only run about an 8.8 40 meterrs!

[Edited by illini_ref on May 9th, 2005 at 03:14 PM]

[mcrowder]

Sorry to have offended. If you've lurked at all around here or the softball board, you will probably find numerous threads where either horrible umpires or local yokel fans have stated, "Hands are part of the bat". It's typically the very first and most prominent sign that an umpire or fan is completely clueless.

Again - no offense intended, as I misread your moniker to imply you were a softball umpire (even the "umpires" I work with in football refer to themselves as "officials", and not umpires... you never hear a linesman calling himself a linesman when describing what he does ... other than a small minority of egomanical white-hats, most football officials I know call themselves football officials.)

And try as I may, I'll never be known for my tact, as many here will attest.

[Illini_Ref]

Hey, hey, white hats aren't egomaniacal. We are just better than everyone else. That's all!

[IAUMP]

Originally posted by Illini_Ref
Ah, IAUMP, but do you fit the FB umpire stereotype?
[Edited by illini_ref on May 9th, 2005 at 03:14 PM]

illini,

You bet I fit the stereotype!!! I am 5'8" and 265. However, I can cover the 40 in less time than your Back Judge.

mcrowder, No offense taken. Being a "official" (I hate that term) teaches you to grow thick skin (as you know). I call myself an Ump because that is the position I work on my crew. In my opinion it is the best position to work a football game at because you get the real feel for the action and you normally can't hear the coaches that well.

[mcrowder]

My condolences.

I say that because now that I've paid my dues, I pray I never work U again, even 7th grade. I'm a referee as often as possible. I feel it keeps me in the game without the constant distractions of nagging A$$ coaches or 12-year-old chain crews, and without the fear of death (I'm not a sizable man) that accompanies the umpire slot. My white hat is off to you for taking on the most dangerous spot on the field.

[Rich]

Originally posted by mcrowder
My condolences.

I say that because now that I've paid my dues, I pray I never work U again, even 7th grade. I'm a referee as often as possible. I feel it keeps me in the game without the constant distractions of nagging A$$ coaches or 12-year-old chain crews, and without the fear of death (I'm not a sizable man) that accompanies the umpire slot. My white hat is off to you for taking on the most dangerous spot on the field.

Mine too. I'm a white hat on Friday nights and about 2/3 of the other games I work. I will work anywhere but umpire. The one game in my life I umpired, I got stepped on during the first play.

I'm a rules and game management kinda guy, so referee is just natural for me. But there are MANY high school football officials that think of themselves as umpires first. It takes a certain kind