We have a coach that uses a defensive conference with the current pitcher to give his substitute some extra warm-up throws prior to bringing him in.

Coach (usually) calls time. Walks onto the field with a ball and when he gets to the mound, he tosses the ball to the short-stop who begins tossing with the 2nd baseman. While he talks to the pitcher, the SS, will get a dozen or so throws in. Conference ends and coach returns to dugout. A pitch or 2 later, coach calls time again and now brings in the SS to pitch.

The first time this happened with me, I ordered the ball off the field. The coach responds that there is no rule prohibiting this. I responded that game management allows me to restrict this activity to prevent delays and keep things moving. He threw "you don't want this kid to hurt his arm, do you?" at me.


Thoughts and rule reference please? thx

Had this discussion and had my thinking changed. If a coach wants to let a ball be tossed around during a conference, it is not disallowed under FED rules. Since the posting of the thread that Luke alluded to, I have had four games where that situation has occurred and I allowed the ball to be tossed around. Injured player was removed from the field and F3 was moved to F5. Wanted to warm up his arm while they were removing the injured player. Why not? If a coach wants to use his time out to let a field player get a little extra warm-up before bringing him in - why not? Again, I had my thinking changed on this by persuasive argument. I was in your camp prior to the post mentioned by Luke. I am now in the other camp. I can learn from others.
My humble opinion.

It's allowed in NCAA as well. Huston Street warmed up as thirdbaseman with a player from the dugout many times last year while coach was conferring with the current pitcher.

I think you're allowing the conference to go on to long. Here's what I do. Coach calls time out and as he's walking to the mound I clean the plate. When that's done I stand in front of the plate for a reasonable period of time. I then walk quickly to the mound (if the conference is still going on). Hey Coach are you making a change. If not. Coach let's play ball.

the *intent* of the warmup pitch limitations appear to me to be entirely based on avoiding delays. If theres no delay here, no harm. JMO.

It is up to the umpire to allow it or not allow it. This is not a one size fits all application. First of all this is a safety issue. What if one of those players throws the ball and misses their target? You have umpires and possibly runners that have to dodge a ball they ordinarily would not have to worry about. The very reason during the pregame meeting the players are not allowed on the field is so the umpires and coaches do not have to dodge balls flying at them. I would use the same logic here.

Also, it is not your responsibility to keep players from getting hurt. That is not our job. If players are not warmed up before the game, that is there fault and the coaches fault. The rules are specific on what is allowed to throw the ball around and those mainly apply the pitchers. I have in my career allowed fielders to throw the ball around, but it is not required. I know I do not get paid enough money for medical expenses if I get hit or I do not want to pay lawyers to defend myself if someone else gets hit. Until the NF uses such a rule to restrict or allow such a situation, then I am going to use my discretion. For me this is not about a delay, this is about safety (mainly my own).

Peace

As I said on the original post, if throwing the ball around a few extra times helps the new pitcher throw strikes better, it is better for everybody. I would consider it far safer, for the batter, to have a pitcher properly warmed up, than to let one slip while warming up in the infield, when he is not really throwing hard.

Could you please tell me what rule specifically prevents players from throwing a ball around during a conference or when an injury has occurred and players are being replaced? Your post says the " rules are specific " and I know of none. I would like to have them if you can provide them. It will not change my opinion, but if it is a rule that needs enforcing, it would change my attitude.

Also, in one sentence you state " First of all this is a safety issue. " Then in the next paragraph you state " it is not your responsibility to keep players from getting hurt. " Then in your final paragraph you state " . . this is about safety ( mainly my own )." This final statement says
" mainly " your own but not COMPLETELY your own so I guess that means someone else's safety as well - the players, the coaches, the fans? So I guess I want to ask. Which is it?
I fought this battle in a previous post and realized I was wrong. I still feel I was wrong, but I am curious why you feel you have FED support on your position. Please provide that for me.

Thanks.

The FED rules are clear.

2-10-1.

3-4-1.

The most important rule I will reference is 10-2-3g which says, "Make final decisions on rules not covered by the rules."

There is nothing that allows such activity or even states that throwing the ball around is the purpose of a conference. The purpose of a conference is to "confer with defensive player or players." It does not say, "Throw the ball around for warming up player or players."

If that is not good enough for you, find me a rule that says otherwise. Find me a rule that says it is OK to do this.

Peace

Oh please, let's not get into this again. We all know:

1. Some things are allowed that the rules do not specifically permit.

2. Some things are not allowed that the rules do not specifically prohibit.

Examples of #1: chewing gum, running out to the field to get into position, and smiling.

Examples of #2: digging a trench around 2B, pouring molasses all over the pitcher, and screaming nonstop.

Please do not play "burden tennis" with the rules. Good judgment is required concerning what is in the spirit of the game and what good officiating requires. If you don't know whether these virtues permit a specific practice, then ask. That's what the board is for. I take it that's what this thread is for...

With respect to throwing the ball around: yes, the rules are silent about this, but that doesn't cut either way. My own view is: it does no harm until it slows the game, at which point I would disallow it on those grounds. I don't buy the "safety issue" business - it's no more a safety issue during a conference than it is between innings.

[Edited by mbyron on Apr 19th, 2005 at 04:08 AM]

I dont' have last year's book with me, but the current rule states that both players "warming up" must be in the current line-up. 9-4a AR6

Good point. Wonder if it was the DH who jumped out of the dugout to warm him up.

Sorry " Peace ", but 2-10-1 does NOT prohibit a ball being thrown around during a conference. iN FACT, IT DOES NOT PROHIBIT anything. It only speaks to who is involed in the charged conference. It doesn't disallow players talking to each other, stopping to get a drink while the conference is going on, retying their shoes, changing a fielders glove, or a multitude of other things - INCLUDING THROWING A BALL AROUND! Since it doesn't say the coach must walk forwards would you disallow him walking backwards if he chooses to? Everyone of these is as ridiculous as not letting them throw a ball around. So how does 2-10-1 give anyone the authority to prevent a ball from being tossed?

And . . . 3-4-1 makes NO reference to a ball being prohibited from the players while conferences are going on. It only identifies the rule on the overall requirements for a charged conference, which has NOTHING to do with players activities during the conference.

Geez, we have already debated this and I was wrong. WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! Be strong enough to admit the same and move on.

Oh yeah watch out for 10-2-3g on this forum.
It spells trouble. Might want to rethink that one too.
I have learned on that one as well.

[Edited by officialtony on Apr 19th, 2005 at 09:34 AM]

By the way mcrowder.
The original post did say the ball was tossed to the SS who played catch with the 2nd baseman ( or vice versa ) during the conference. I wasn't sure if you were having fun or if you missed that part. If you were having fun with the post, forgive my intrusion.

I'm looking at the 2004 book, and it also says that both players must be currently in the lineup. And they both have to be in fair territory. So whoever allowed this missed both parts of the rule.

officialtony,

You are missing the point. The rule does not permit or allow for warming up to take place during a defensive conference. I guess someone could use your logic and say that we should allow hitting the ball around the diamond during the conference as well. Why not allow infield practice? The rules do not disallow it.

This action is up to the umpire to make a decision on what he will allow. If it is me, I am not allowing throwing the ball around during a conference. For one there could be a delay if they throw the ball away. There is a safety issue if there are people standing around and not completely aware a baseball is being thrown around the infield. I do not care what other umpires do. I would only care if my state organization has given a specific ruling on this and they have never done so. That has not happen. There is no casebook situation that says this is OK. If the coach is so worried about his players warming up, then do it before the game or between innings. It does not even say in the rulebook that a team has the right to take infield before the game. It is not a right to have a kid warm-up in this situation. If you want to allow warming up, then allow it. I am not going to allow it. That is all there is to it.

Peace

The FED rules specifically disallow this, Jeff.

Disallows what? The warming up or the taking infield?

Peace

OK .
Do it your way. If it is right for you and no one challenges it, then OK. I disagree with your logic after having, myself, been persuaded away from the kind of thinking you express. But, ultimately, it is your call.

Well
 

Jeff, FEDERATION rules specifically do not allow any player or coach to hit balls to defensive players after the start of a game. It is clearly written in the "Field Conduct" rules.

Other than that there is no rule against infielders warming up with a ball during the change of a picther. If it is safe between innings it must certainly be safe at any other time.

As for an base umpire worrying about "his" own safety: well, during a change of pitcher I am in the outfield at either "B" or "C" extended so safety is not an issue.

So I think you better read your own posts:

You said the rules forbid warming up during the pitching change which is incorrect.

You yourself established that the "hitting of balls" was during a conference therefore it was not "during infield" . . .

Jeff, you've reach way out on this one.

Care to think it over?

[Edited by Tim C on Apr 19th, 2005 at 02:02 PM]

I do not care if they challenge my ruling. Whether they challenge it or not does not change that no where in the rules does it state <b>they have the right</b> to do that.

Peace

Re: Well
 

I think you are not really reading what I am saying. What I am saying is we are dealing with conferences here. We are only dealing with Rule 3-4-1 in this discussion (at least I am). We are not dealing with every single rule in the rulebook. In the conferences rules, there is no rule that allows anything outside of conferring with players.

The rule you are talking about (3-3-1d) deals with conduct that might lead to possible ejections. I am not talking about ejecting anyone. I am talking about what I am going to allow. I am not going to eject someone if they try this. I just will not allow this to talk place at all.

The casebook is the book for FED that gives interpretations or clarifications. There is no play that addresses this under Rule 3-4-1 as well.

If someone disagrees, contact the state and ask them. If they feel this should be allowed, then they will contact me and put out information that clarifies what is allowed or not allowed during a defensive conference. If the state allows it, I will do what the state allows. I never said the rules could not be interpreted that way, I am saying I do not see it that way.

Peace

3.3.1 in the case book. fed rules.
situation P: during a charged conference, the coach or other bench prsonnel A)hits or B) throws fly balls to a substitute outfielder, Ruling illegal in a) and legal in B)

TO me that sounds like you can throw the ball around.

Great job W. You beat me to the case book citation. Everyone arguing whether can or can not and rule was right there for everyone to see. Now we know who does and who does not read their rules and case books diligently or are just to lazy to open them up and look for the definitive answer before posting. The I don't care attitude by some umpires toward the rules is probably evident on the field also.

That is not what happened in the original story. This was not a substitute. This was two players already in the game. A substitute is one thing. Two players already in the game is another issue all together. Find me a play that covers that, I will then agree with you.

Peace

devils advocate
 

Put the shoe on the other foot and you find a play that says that you can NOT let players in the game warm up.

Thanks
David

Re: devils advocate
 

Rule 10-2-3g says (talking about the Umpire in Chief), "Make final decision on points not covered by the rules."

There is no rule that allows active players to throw the ball around during a conference, so it is ultimately my (or anyone else) decision when I am the Umpire in Chief.

I do not think this kind of action is in the spirit of the rules. You have a right to disagree. Not everyone does the same things across the board.

Peace

On no the dreaded 10-2-3g
 

That's what I thought. If you're going to use that logic then don't let the players on the field throw the ball around between innings either.

There is a one minute time limit and after the one minute is up then no more throws are allowed. It doesn't say anything in the rule about the catcher being ready or not.

That's really silly IMO.

As Tee said, we're standing in RF or LF, let em warm up. When PU's ready to play, lets' play.

Thanks
David

It sounds like to me David, you are just adding stuff to the discussion because someone does not agree with you. I have never said this is what everyone has to do. I have made it clear that this is how I would handle the situation. Actually, I couldn't care less what others do as it relates to this rule (or non-rule). I know what I am going to do. I have also never seen a coach try this. It is like worrying about whether a player corks an aluminum bat. Until it happens, I am not going to worry about it. When it happens, I have a pretty good idea what I am going to say or do about it. I know others that feel the same way or would not allow this to happen. They just are not on a website talking about it.

Peace

Re: Re: devils advocate
 

There is no rule that disallows it either, yet you choose to ignore the rules presented to you because they don't " exactly " fit your case.

Why do you let the defensive players talk to each other away from the mound? It doesn't allow that in 3-4-1.
Why do you allow the offensive players to talk to each other during a defensive conference? It doesn't allow that in 3-4-1.
Why do you let players sit down on the field or bases during a conference? It doesn't allow that in 3-4-1.
All of these things are as silly as you not letting a couple of guys throw a ball around.

As far as others not being on the website talking about it, this was beat to death in another post and everybody finally said enough is enough - and I learned a lesson. Be flexible and learn to adjust to the spirit of the game - not your spirit.
I'm done.
Hope I don't have to EVER work with one like you.
I need flexibility in a partner.

[Edited by officialtony on Apr 20th, 2005 at 10:40 AM]

Say what?
 

I should know better than to try to make a point with you because you always respond with the same comments.

If you had read the discussion I only added my points after reading your rediculous argument, and then after Tee pointed out that you should rethink it, you go to the same old song and dance routine about you know what you would do and that's all that matters.

Then my point is "don't post it on the forum so others won't think that what the book says."

I was simply pointing out that your "what I would do" does not match with either the rule book or the case book.

Then I went on to point out that there are rules that you "should" be doing, but you don't.

Now before you go to the 2nd stanza, of how do I know what you do, I've never seen you work a game, just believe me I've been doing baseball long enough to know.

So I was just trying to get you to think a little bit but to no avail. Have a nice season.

Thanks
David

Re: Re: Re: devils advocate
 

Just as I thought from the very beginning. You find someone that disagrees with your application on one rule. Then you turn this discussion into other unrelated issues that we are not discussing.

I work 3 sports Tony. I have worked with all kinds of people in my career. I have worked from everyone like the rules guy that read something in the casebook and has to apply it to the letter or the wording, to the guy that could not care one bit what the latest ruling is. I even worked with a guy recently that never heard of the "V" in his 30 years of umpiring. This person was the plate umpire and wanted to take all fly balls, all the time. I am much more flexible then you will ever know.

Having said that, you will never have to worry about us working together, it is not going to happen anyway. ;)

Peace

Re: Say what?
 

With all due respect, who the hell are you? You are at the very least just another umpire like me. You are no one special to me. No one I run with references you and your opinions on a daily basis. Even if you were an Major League Umpire, it is clear there are people here that have little or no respect for those individuals either. If we have people that can rip every "big time official" that has accomplished 10 times more than most here, then why should I listen to you over my years of working and accomplishing things in a sport which is a distant 3rd in my radar of wanting to be successful?

I must have missed the memo that made you God of all philosophies and opinions on rule applications.

Peace

Well, there you have it! They can throw the ball around as long as the coach doesn't change the pitcher! ;)

Wow JRut was that fun? Sometimes discussions can progress into a war of words. You would not think that it would happen on a forum specially designed for animals of the same color, but we do resort to clawing one another. I guess it is the nature of the beast.

By the way, I don't agree with you on this issue, but I respect your willingness to try and express it.

I cannot find many umpires that can agree on many other issues that I would see as much more important to umpiring. Why would I expect agreement here on a rule or application that I have never seen a coach try?

Peace

Re: Re: Say what?
 

I am simply an umpire like you; however, I don't think I was attacking your character, just your interpretations.

I have yet to read a rule out of any of your posts except for Rule 10 which is a scapegoat rule for umpires.

Obviously you guys must play a little different brand of baseball than we do as we have coaches switch pitchers all the time and ask if the pitcher going to F6 or F5 can take a few throws.

Just because you haven't seen it happen doesn't mean it is a part of the game on a regular basis.

I hope that my posts did not offend anyone else, but I have a problem with umpires wanting to skirt around the issue and then use Rule 10 to get around the issue.

Thanks
David


[Edited by David B on Apr 20th, 2005 at 02:50 PM]

I do too, David. But we've already all admitted here that the rulebook is NOT clear on this, one way or the other. Other than rule 10, what do you use to support your case - regardless of which side of the case you land on. Personally, I'm not on JRut's side on this... but if asked for a rule reference to back up my position, I'm relying on exactly the same rule that he is here.

Questions not covered elsewhere (like this one) are EXACTLY what that rule is in there for.

What I'm baffled by is why, in a case like this that is obviously not supported either way, ANYone feels compelled to bash a fellow blue simply because the bashee would rule differently than the basher.

it is the way things are done "in this neck of the woods". Get use to it, grow a thick skin and move on. This site is full of great advice and extremely intelligent umpires. Sometimes a tomato in the face is the price you pay to learn how to be a more skilled umpire.

Going round and round and round and round........
 

David,

Stop adding stuff to the discussion. I am not debating every single situation with players warming up. We are not talking about a sub warming up, we are talking about warming up (or what I take away from the question) just as apart of a conference. If that is what is taking place, I am not allowing that. If there is a substitute, that is another issue and I have a different attitude.


David,

All sports I work have a rule like I references. In my soon to be 10 years of officiating sports, there have been situations that have come up that no rule specifically covers. If something becomes a problem or a trend, the rules committees create rules that cover those situations. You do not have to accept my opinion on this, but if something is not covered specifically by the rules, I and any other umpire has the right and duty to come up with a solution. What if the other coach complains and makes a big deal out of this action? You are going to have to tell the coach something. You have to have some reason for applying your application of this procedure. If you feel warming up is within the bounds of a conference, you better have some justification for backing that up. In my opinion that is what Rule 10-2-3g is for. You sure have not shown me anything other than your own common sense and what you think is right to allow this.

No one is skirting the issue by quoting 10-2-3g; I dealt with it head on. You have a right to no agree with that ruling. I do not have to work with you either. My opinion is just that, an opinion. I cannot get umpires to apply rules that are clearly stated in the book and are applied by everyone but them. This is not a problem where I live, nor is essential umpiring a game. I gave you my take on a very unusual situation and you have done nothing but tell me I am wrong. You have shown no rule to contradict the situation that deals with the specific situation. All are doing is telling me I am wrong. Well that does not work with me. Sorry, it just does not.

Peace