This might be kind of nitpicking, but here is my question/situation. It is the 4th inning and the coach is out to switch pitchers. His pitcher gets to his 7 warm-up pitch and the catcher decides to run to the dugout to fix a bandage which he had on his finger. The coach comes in to finish his pitchers warm-up and procedes to take extra warm-up pitches while the catcher is being attended to. I (thinking I am doing the right thing) tell the coach that his pitcher has had his warm-up pitches and don't allow him to continue. Now that I am writing this...it sounds kind of bad what I did....was I wrong in doing this? This was the coach's 3rd pitching change and the catchers second time having to go to the dugout to fix a bandage on his finger.....the game was dragging and I wanted to move the game on. I also thought it was not fair for his pitcher to recieve extra throws because the catcher decided to take off after the 7th warm-up pitch. Any feedback on this would be greatly appreciated.

I remember a coach who would come out to talk to the pitcher and on his way to the mound he would throw a ball to the 1B man, who would then begin warming up with the 2B man. After spending some time with the pitcher he would then make the change to bring in 1B man to pitch. Coaches will do what the can to get extra warmups. What if the bandage is a planned gimic to get more warmups? That is what comes to mind, especially since it happened after the 7th pitch. Give him 8 and call and end to it, and then wait for the catcher, unless it is cold and he was brought in cold (ie no bullpen warmpup), in which case allow him a few more pitches. If he is out to switch pitchers due to a pitcher injury or pitcher ejection (it has happened)give the new pitcher all he wants.

I also love it when the catcher is late getting out to warmup the pitcher after a half inning. If he gets there by the 5th warmup I tell him to throw it down. If he gets there after the 5th warmup we play ball. If a coach comes out to warmup the pitcher while catcher is getting ready I tell him to throw it down on the 5th warmup.

If the coach decides to have a defensive team meeting outside the dugout before taking the field and it takes too long for the meeting I tell the catcher to throw the first warmup pitch down. I love getting the fan comments after that one... Coach sometimes gets the message and sometimes not.

[Edited by DG on Apr 1st, 2005 at 11:40 PM]

I like when they decide on the 4th warm up to throw to 3rd, expecting to go to 2nd on the 5th warm up.. I tell them time to play ball. Sometimes the look is priceless.

I also had a high school catcher that tried to tell me the "check swing rule" in that it is if he made an attempt. He also preceeded to lead off that inning. I looked over at the 1b coach who heard the catcher "setting us straight on the rule" and told him what he thought the look would be like if I rang him up for the slightest little flinch of the bat on a check swing. He laughed and said he would pay money to see that one.

Seven?

Thank You.
I thought it was me at first.
Isn't it 5 pitches or one minute between innings?
Should it ever have gotten to 7 pitches?
The point is, don't let them have any more than the prescribed amount of warm-up " pitches "
Those are for the pitcher to warm up his arm, not the coach or the catcher. When the catcher returns ( if the coach is warming up the pitcher ), it's " play ball " time .
My perspective only.

UH OH . . . .
Just reread the post.
They were changing pitchers.
Seventh pitch was OK.
My Bad. Sorry.
However, the rest of my post was still right on in my book.
Only prescribed amount of pitches regardless who is catching them.

[Edited by officialtony on Apr 2nd, 2005 at 01:04 PM]

tip from an NCAA buddy
 

Over a pitcher of suds the other day, a couple of us HS guys were talking with a buddy that calls NCAA ball. He enforces the pitch limit like this...

F2 is 3rd out of a 1/2 inning. Back-up catcher comes out and takes warm-up pitches from the pitcher. After the 4th pitch, PU says, "save the last one for your catcher, go to the dugout."

My buddy said, that NCAA coaches, players and catchers are conditioned to that way of thinking.

My partner and I decide to give it a shot at the next game. F2 makes the 3rd out and is lolly-gagging in the dugout. Sure enough, back-up catcher comes out and takes 4 pitches. "Hey bud, save the last pitch for your catcher." A confused look hit his face and then a light-bulb goes off. He gets up and starts hollerin' at the catcher, hurry up and get up here, we are waitin' on you. Coach jumps in catcher's butt, catcher gets going. No more drag-butt from either team between innings...even in the JV game.

Great idea.
I like it and will use it.
Thanks.

7 pitches
 

A new pitcher gets 8 warm ups not 7, between innings a pitcher gets 5. I've had coaches come out to talk to the pitcher and bring a ball with them to give to another player to throw. I make them get the ball off of my field immediately. I will not have a bull pen going on my field.

stanump 12474
I didn't see anyone make reference to only 7 pitches for a new pitcher to warmup. Did I miss something? I think we were all pretty clear it was 5 between innings and 8 for new pitcher.
I agree that there should be no other baseballs on the field during a pitching conference. However, there also has been some discussion about calling a high school or city baseball field " our " field. It really doesn't belong to us. We can regulate what happens on any baseball field to which we are assigned, but I recommend not calling it " my " field.
Just my opinion.

Where do we agree about no other baseballs on the field during a pitching conference? Cite a rule please.

DG
I didn't say " we " agree. I did say " I " agree about no other baseballs on the field during a conference - meaning I agreed with stanump 12474 about that situation. I learned not to speak for anyone but myself on these forums.
I do not know of any FED Rule that specifically does or does not cover that. I do know that I do not want baseballs being thrown around while there are additional personnel moving around on the field for any reason. Consider it my effort at safety for myself as well as others on the field.
If there is no FED rule covering this situation, I would enforce it with 10-2-3g if Luke will allow me to do that ( or not ).

DG
 

The rule is the one that says anything not specifically covered bt these rules is left to the discretion of the umpire.

stanump12474
Again, I agree with you.
See previous reply.
10-2-3g is my reference for my decision to not have additional baseballs on the field during Defensive conferences - pitching or otherwise.

So you and stanump are going the 9.01C/10-2-g route on this? I would consider this OOO as I don't see anything unsafe about 1B and 2B playing catch. Unusual yes, unsafe no. Who is Luke?

Any rationale behind this?

Safety? What are you talking about? The only additional personel on the field is the manager who is talking to the pitcher. The Federation ain't that concerned with coach safety as they allow coaches to warm up pitchers without a helmet.

There are about 10,000 dangerous things which go on in each game. It is not your job to be the safety police and try to protect everyone. Last time I checked, it was possible to choke on chewing gum, so I always warn the coaches at the plate meeting that anyone caught with gum will be ejected, as will the manager for allowing his players to partake in such an unsafe practice. It's just my way of protecting everyone.

[Edited by LDUB on Apr 4th, 2005 at 02:06 AM]

I don't know if " rationale " would be the correct term, but I liken it to having players throwing baseballs around in the infield during the pregame conference at the plate. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of having baseballs being tossed around by any age group when I or others in the infield are focused on other things - like a pitchers conference or any defensive conference. Since the rule applies during pregame, I like to see it applied all the time - again during conferences, not ALL the time. This is strictly MY opinion. There are no SPECIFIC rules in NFHS to support this officially. Am I being an OOO? Geez, I hope not. I should point out that I still do some youth leagues for the local youth baseball federation during their tournament weekends. That may be where I get this " philosophy " from. But I am open to opinions on this.
( Didn't mean to steal someone else's post .)

Oh side note.
Luke is one on this forum who does not believe any situation should require the use of 10-2-3g. He feels any " competent " official doesn't have to use it. A theory I happen to disagree with, and one which he has failed to respond to my questions.

LDUB,
Well I would disagree with you. In any sport that I officiate, safety IS MY priority. Mostly because they are young adults or children and as such do not necessarily watch out for themselves or others. I think chewing gum is a ridiculous analogy to my situation, so it's not worth debating. Since I am responsible for controlling what happens on the field while I am there. I try to act where I can control safety issues. I feel this to be one of them. If you don't feel it is an issue for you, let it go.

If the bull pen areas are inside the fence along 1st and 3rd base but in the outfield, do you require a player to watch over the catcher or pitcher ( whoever has his back to the plate )? Do you require him to wear a helmet? Just curious since you are not the safety police. I do. Oh well. we perform our tasks in different ways and I can live with that.

Oh, this situation had come up maybe twice in the last 6 years. Certainly one over which a debate is necessary.

Then why is it allowed to have the infield warm up between innings? Both are during "allowed" delays in the game.

I apply NCAA 9-4a AR 6 "During a free trip, a defensive player may warm up with another defensive player, provided it does not delay the game."

So many things,
 

While it is true that I have only worked 3,772 games on large fields only but I have never seen nor needed to refer to 10-2-3g. I know how to umpire and take care of business.

There is no rule that does not allow infoelders the opportunity to warm up during an inning. I would never stop that activity.

As to F2 returning to his position after making the last out of an inning.

I do things differently (that does not mean more correctly) than all of you.

If F2 makes the last out I watch him return to the dugout. I watch to see how fast he is putting on the tolls of ignorance.

As F1 throws to a back-up catcher I let him throw maybe two pitches.

I then walk out to the mound and take all the balls out of my pocket (or ball bag) and ask the pitcher if he is happy with the one he is throwing . . . as he looks at the other pills I say something like, "take your time I am letting 'Gunner' get his gear on."

Usually the pitcher says "thanks" or something like that . . . I then tell the pitcher to fill in the extra holes on the mound and kick some dirt around.

As I walk towards home I look for good old F2 and hope he is on his way back out.

I then tell the back-up F2, "hey here comes 'Gunner'."

Works for me . . . never had an issue with it.

And I have certainly never been called "OOO."

No.

You said that you "love" to use this rule.

I said that if you are competent, you will almost never use this rule.

The difference is there is a rule that prohibits players from being on the field during the pregame, much less throwing a ball around. And what about between innings when the 1B man routinely throws grounders to the other infielders. If balls are being thrown around I will be focused on making sure I am standing somewhere where it would be very rare to get hit by a thrown ball (RCF if on bases, on one of the line on plate). I mentioned that I have seen a coach throw a ball to 1B man and he starts playing catch with 2B man. I have also seen the ball thrown into CF and the CF play catch with RF. While this is unusual I see no reason to do anything about it. Lastly, if a coach does this when he first comes off the bench, then has his mound meeting and then calls for the change the new pitcher is likely to get 8-10 more warmup tosses before being called to pitch and if that makes him a better pitcher, or less likely to injure his arm due to only 8 warmups I am all for it.

[Edited by DG on Apr 4th, 2005 at 10:05 PM]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by officialtony
LDUB,
If the bull pen areas are inside the fence along 1st and 3rd base but in the outfield, do you require a player to watch over the catcher or pitcher? Do you require him to wear a helmet? /QUOTE]Any player in live ball territory is required by rule to wear a helmet, but there is no requirement I am aware of for a 3rd person "protector" for the battery in the bullpen. So No to the first question, and Yes to the second, if there is a 3rd person there. There is also no rule to prohibt a 3rd person so I would not whip 10.2.3g out and prohibit it.

DG,

Here I go again on the safety thing. I REQUIRE a 3rd player to " protect " whoever has their back to the plate. I want someone watching the ball off the bat on any ball that may come at the player with his back to the plate. And of course, he must have a helmet. I just feel this is the safe thing to do. No rule to cover it by either requiring it or prohibiting it. In my humble opinion, it is the right thing to do.
Thanks.

Which is the point, i'nit?
While it is true that controling fielders throwing the ball around during a conference would be a job for 9.01c/10-2-3g, no competent umpire would do so.

Don't give me "safety": that is the "religion" of OOO umpires: the last refuge of scoundrels. Just because you chant the mantra "safety" doesn't make it so - no serious person will believe that there is the slightest greater risk [above that inherent in the game itself] from fielders throwing a ball around during a stoppage in play. You are using "safety" the same way you are using 10-2-3: as an excuse for inventing a private rule to demonstrate that you are in charge.

To restate: the reason that Luke is correct, and that Tee has never had occasion to use 10-2-3g/9.01c is that competent umpires don't go looking for things to rule on that aren't covered in the rule book. With an infitessimally small number of exceptions, if it ain't covered in the rule book, you probably don't need to rule on it, even if it actually happens in your game; or if you are forced to rule [because some coach is out there demanding that you stop this "outrage"], the best ruling is "There's no rule that prohibits that, Coach".

You require this but you allow players to chew gum? I would bet that more players choke on chewing gum than get hit in the head with a batted ball, while wearing a glove, and standing 200-300 feet away from home plate in foul territory.

If safety is your mantra then why not really protect the battery, send 3 or 4 players down there with helmets in case one misses that line drive you are worried about. Better yet tell them they can't use the bullpen, because there is no rule that says they can. Send them to the parking lot to warmup. But wait, they might get hit by a car in the parking lot, so send them to school gym to warmup. No cars or foul balls there. Make sure they take off their spikes before going in the gym and if they ask why tell them 10-2-3g. Geez...

[Edited by DG on Apr 4th, 2005 at 11:30 PM]

Do you allow fielders to warm-up between innings? What's the difference? The coach at the mound? C'mon.

As Tee pointed out there is no rule to prohibit this and if anyone was to go overboard with safety rules, it would be FED. Yes, in my opinion, you are being OOO.

I may sound ignorant, but what the heck is OOO?

Official Tony
 

In my game last week the visiting team had only 11 players.

Since you "demand" a protection for the people in the bullpen how do you handle it when there are no players available.

Let's see . . . I guess you could send the head coach down there . . . in fact you would HAVE to since he had no assistants.

I think we should change the term OOO to an "OfficialTony".

Lah Me.

I certainly am amazed. Instead of moving on to other posts you guys want to beat a dead horse with your garbage about chewing gum being dangerous, spikes in a gymnasium ( yeah that's relevant ), a bullpen in a parking lot ( yeah that's a good retort ), refuge of scoundrels ( what ? ), and an array of equally inane comments. I once apologized on this forum for not giving most of you the respect I felt you had earned. Most of you have now proven that you do not deserve that respect from me. You rebuke the inexperienced and those who have questions that are legitimate to beginners. You ridicule others for explaining their " rationale " after you have replied with your cute little comments. When I ask for NFHS references I get smart a** comments - and I am not the only one who receives those. When I try to contribute in areas where I am a little familiar with either NFHS or experience by fire, you guys seem to find a way to try to ridicule me also - without addressing the original post. But . . . . it's OK. If I didn't have thick skin, I would not be an official. I will continue to post and observe and reply because I think there are a lot of guys and gals out there who can and will share their experiences in an adult manner with guys like me who still want to learn and improve. And I can tell you I have learned an awful lot about people on this forum. So fire away, but at least try to keep it relevant to posts and not ego building or ego bashing.
By the way, you guys managed to establish that I must use 10-2-3g about 12 times a game. Or so it would seem by the way you all reference that rule in your posts. I have used it twice in 5 years ( legitimately ).
But it was certainly worth all the ink and excitement you managed to put forth on this forum - wasn't it?
Time for me to move on. I have pitchers plates to clean, and bases to dust and baseballs to be taken off of the infield and players to put back in the dugout and clickers to polish . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

w_sohl
OOO means overly officious official. Folks on this forum sometimes use it to refer to officials who fall back on the rules in NFHS for every little thing they want to call in a ball game. It is a deragatory term and if used toward you, you may want to rethink the observation you put forth which evoked the term being directed towards you. By the nature of its use here, it is considered an insult ( I guess ). Whatever you posted which drew the remark generally means you are SO wrong in their eyes that you had better go back to square one and rethink your statement.
This is my humble opinion and you will undoubtedly get more after this post.

Everyone knows that these things are stupid things that no one would ever enforce. The thing you don't realize, is that requiring a protector for the bullpen, and not allowing players to play catch, are equally as crazy of things to enforce.

I appreciate your reply .
I am going to end this post though because I just think it got out of control and away from the real issues. I agree that enforcing no ball toss during a conference is disagreeable to most everybody and I am going to adopt that concept from now on ( just in case it happens a 3rd time in my career ). I will, however continue to request that the coach put someone out there with the bullpen. I asked some of the guys from my association about that and they said they were told to request that also by the association. Perhaps my choice of words and emphasis was poor and I acknowledge that.
I will focus on the important things like not making the coach or myself the focus of any contest, but letting the competetitors be the focus.

Thanks to all who constructivey contributed to my learning process.

Gee Tony,
 

You said,

"Most of you have now proven that you do not deserve that respect from me."

What's your point, I do not need anything from you . . . certainly not your respect (BTW, CDP system still sucks).

You added:

" . . . without addressing the original post."

And I gave you an example in my last post about what if there are not enough players? You ignored that just like you claim we ignore things.

BTW Tony, in my game TODAY, when there was a change of pitchers there was a ball in the infield warming up infielders in mid-inning.

It is MY OPINION that you try to hide behind the word "safety" rather than trying to manage your game in an adult manner.

<b>I have used it twice in 5 years ( legitimately ).
</b>

And how many times illegitimately? :D

[Edited by GarthB on Apr 7th, 2005 at 12:16 AM]

Garth.
It was easier to add the legitimate uses.
I couldn't begin to count the illegitimate ones.