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-   -   Pickoffs from the windup? (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/19159-pickoffs-windup.html)

David Emerling Sat Mar 26, 2005 01:13pm
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Another Expert Opinion
 
Quote:
Originally posted by LDUB
Quote:
Originally posted by David Emerling
The point isn't whether it's "better" - it's that it's needlessly <i>different</i>. It causes confusion. And the reason so many teams don't realize that they can do a verbal appeal is because their higher comfort level (i.e. familiarity) with OBR rules.
If people are confused by rules they have never read, then that is their own fault. If someone reads the rule book they will no longer be confused about how to appeal.
We can keep beating that drum if we like. That is a worn argument and has been used for a very long time.

"They should know the rules!"

It's a bit naive to expect coaches, players, and fans to sit down and read the NFHS rules and discern the differences.

This is especially true since NFHS rules are so proprietory. You can find OBR rules all over the place. It's proudly available on the internet.

NFHS rules?

[insert mysterious music]

Not available. Hard to find. Cannot be readily checked. And then we wonder why people are not well-educated.

Over the years, I've had unusual things happen in games (OBR games) and the next day, some fan, coach or <i>somebody</i> will come back to the park the next day and say, "Last night I checked that interference rule and it said ... blah, blah, blah," At least they checked! They saw something unusual, or something they didn't understand, they got curious, and they <i>checked</i>. Nothing like that could <i>ever</i> occur in a high school game. The mystery persists.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Mar 26th, 2005 at 01:15 PM]

Carl Childress Sat Mar 26, 2005 01:23pm
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Another Expert Opinion
 
Quote:
Originally posted by David Emerling
Quote:
Originally posted by Carl Childress
Quote:
I agree - the FED method is not altogether illogical. And - true - if you <i>were</i> inventing a NEW game ... this might be the way to go.

But, nonetheless, it's different! It's different from what most people have grown up watching on TV. At high school games people are often surprised to discover that a runner is out, for missing a base, without an actual PHYSICAL appeal. And, as I said before, at least 50% of the time (or more) the team executes an OBR-style appeal anyway.

The point isn't whether it's "better" - it's that it's needlessly <i>different</i>. It causes confusion. And the reason so many teams don't realize that they can do a verbal appeal is because their higher comfort level (i.e. familiarity) with OBR rules.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN
David: We usually agree, but this time you're dead wrong. (1) In high school games in my area, I have never seen a team try to execute an OBR appeal. We've done a good job of educating our coaches.

(2) I'm not sure I care whether "people" are surprised to discover that a runner is called out without a visible appeal. The teams know; that's enough.

(3) You say the FED rule is "needlessly different." Perhaps. But air conditioning cools more than a ceiling fan. Air conditioning, then, is necessarily better.

Just like the NFHS appeal rule.

One request: Explain one benefit of having the pitcher get onto the rubber, step off with a live ball, etc. Why, half the pitchers step on with the ball when it's already alive. One half of the remainder don't know what to do when they do step off.

And, to tell the truth, I had two appeals in NFHS in the past two and a half seasons, both by the same coach, both upheld. In the last two and a half seasons of OBR, I have had no appeals.

BTW: You owe me an article!
Well, I guess the teams in our area are nearly as well educated than yours. Around here, you're just as likely to get an OBR-style appeal than a FED-style.

The advantage of doing in OBR style? It forces the <i>players</i> (not the coach) to cause a runner to be out. And, it forces the one team to put the <i>other</i> team during LIVE action - which, I think, is the way the game is philosophically intended to be played.

Sure, under OBR, it's possible for a runner to be "out" during dead ball action, but such an out would always be self-inflicted, like one runner passing another runner during an out-of-the-park homerun.

The ball should be LIVE for one team to get outs on the other. It's philosophically the way the game is <i>supposed</i> to be played.

I don't have a problem with it, however. I <i>like</i> reading the BRD!

Regarding that other article ... <font size=6><i>NAG!</i></font>

Besides, how <i>dare</i> you start a series using the word "INTENT". You're <i>stealing</i> my subject matter, man!

David Emerling
Memphis, TN
David: It ain't philosophy. It's just the way the OBR grew up doing it.

Who cares how the runner makes an out? For example, the pitcher has a live ball and throws it to third, saying: "We're appealing that R2 missed that base." Would you deny that appeal because the third baseman is going to take the base? After all, he's the one who <i>should</I> make the appeal. Right?

C'mon. The DH produces more exciting baseball than a pitcher's three whiffs and a trot to the bench. The game changes, my friend.

LDUB Sat Mar 26, 2005 01:34pm
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Another Expert Opinion
 
Quote:
Originally posted by David Emerling
We can keep beating that drum if we like. That is a worn argument and has been used for a very long time.

"They should know the rules!"

It's a bit naive to expect coaches, players, and fans to sit down and read the NFHS rules and discern the differences.

This is especially true since NFHS rules are so proprietory. You can find OBR rules all over the place. It's proudly available on the internet.

NFHS rules?

[insert mysterious music]

Not available. Hard to find. Cannot be readily checked. And then we wonder why people are not well-educated.

Over the years, I've had unusual things happen in games (OBR games) and the next day, some fan, coach or <i>somebody</i> will come back to the park the next day and say, "Last night I checked that interference rule and it said ... blah, blah, blah," At least they checked! They saw something unusual, or something they didn't understand, they got curious, and they <i>checked</i>. Nothing like that could <i>ever</i> occur in a high school game. The mystery persists.
The OBR is available on the internet. But is the OBR the actual rules that the game is being played under?

R1 stealing, fly ball to left field. R1 misses second and starts to advance to third. F7 catches the ball. R1 turns and begins to return to first, he touches second, and is beats the appeal at first. Defense then appeal the initial miss of second by R1, and you rule safe.

The next time you go back to that field, the coach says
"remember that appeal play, I looke it up, and it is under 7.10. He missed the base while advancing. Why didn't you call him out?"

You: "There is a concept called last time by and ..."

Coach: "Well where can I find this in writing?"

You: "Go on the internet and by the J/R or BRD (or whatever other book you can think of)"

Well now we are right back to where we started. In order for someone to understand the rules, they have to go and buy some book. BRD cost $25 (or so) and J/R cost $40 (or so), while the FED rule book cost $6.75.

Now which one of these is an average person more likely to buy? J/R for $40, or the Federation book for $6.75?

David Emerling Sat Mar 26, 2005 07:40pm
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Another Expert Opinion
 
Quote:
Originally posted by LDUB
Quote:
Originally posted by David Emerling
We can keep beating that drum if we like. That is a worn argument and has been used for a very long time.

"They should know the rules!"

It's a bit naive to expect coaches, players, and fans to sit down and read the NFHS rules and discern the differences.

This is especially true since NFHS rules are so proprietory. You can find OBR rules all over the place. It's proudly available on the internet.

NFHS rules?

[insert mysterious music]

Not available. Hard to find. Cannot be readily checked. And then we wonder why people are not well-educated.

Over the years, I've had unusual things happen in games (OBR games) and the next day, some fan, coach or <i>somebody</i> will come back to the park the next day and say, "Last night I checked that interference rule and it said ... blah, blah, blah," At least they checked! They saw something unusual, or something they didn't understand, they got curious, and they <i>checked</i>. Nothing like that could <i>ever</i> occur in a high school game. The mystery persists.
The OBR is available on the internet. But is the OBR the actual rules that the game is being played under?

R1 stealing, fly ball to left field. R1 misses second and starts to advance to third. F7 catches the ball. R1 turns and begins to return to first, he touches second, and is beats the appeal at first. Defense then appeal the initial miss of second by R1, and you rule safe.

The next time you go back to that field, the coach says
"remember that appeal play, I looke it up, and it is under 7.10. He missed the base while advancing. Why didn't you call him out?"

You: "There is a concept called last time by and ..."

Coach: "Well where can I find this in writing?"

You: "Go on the internet and by the J/R or BRD (or whatever other book you can think of)"

Well now we are right back to where we started. In order for someone to understand the rules, they have to go and buy some book. BRD cost $25 (or so) and J/R cost $40 (or so), while the FED rule book cost $6.75.

Now which one of these is an average person more likely to buy? J/R for $40, or the Federation book for $6.75?
Touché!

Good point, Luke.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Michael Taylor Sat Mar 26, 2005 07:47pm
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Another Expert Opinion
 
Quote:
Originally posted by David Emerling
Quote:
Originally posted by LDUB
Quote:
Originally posted by David Emerling
The point isn't whether it's "better" - it's that it's needlessly <i>different</i>. It causes confusion. And the reason so many teams don't realize that they can do a verbal appeal is because their higher comfort level (i.e. familiarity) with OBR rules.
If people are confused by rules they have never read, then that is their own fault. If someone reads the rule book they will no longer be confused about how to appeal.
We can keep beating that drum if we like. That is a worn argument and has been used for a very long time.

"They should know the rules!"

It's a bit naive to expect coaches, players, and fans to sit down and read the NFHS rules and discern the differences.

This is especially true since NFHS rules are so proprietory. You can find OBR rules all over the place. It's proudly available on the internet.

NFHS rules?

[insert mysterious music]

Not available. Hard to find. Cannot be readily checked. And then we wonder why people are not well-educated.

Over the years, I've had unusual things happen in games (OBR games) and the next day, some fan, coach or <i>somebody</i> will come back to the park the next day and say, "Last night I checked that interference rule and it said ... blah, blah, blah," At least they checked! They saw something unusual, or something they didn't understand, they got curious, and they <i>checked</i>. Nothing like that could <i>ever</i> occur in a high school game. The mystery persists.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Mar 26th, 2005 at 01:15 PM]
David:
The reason umpires say HS kids should know the Fed way of appealing is because the coach should. I don't care that Fed rules aren't available on the internet, they are available through the school they coach for. HS coaches are paid to do a job and should be expected to have a passing knowledge of the game they are paid to teach.

David Emerling Sat Mar 26, 2005 08:47pm
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Another Expert Opinion
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Michael Taylor
David:
The reason umpires say HS kids should know the Fed way of appealing is because the coach should. I don't care that Fed rules aren't available on the internet, they are available through the school they coach for. HS coaches are paid to do a job and should be expected to have a passing knowledge of the game they are paid to teach.
[/B]
No argument from me on <i>that</i> point albeit somewhat utopian.

The fact is that baseball is a age old sport that most people have familiarity with almost by osmosis.

People have enough misconceptions regarding <i>OBR</i> rules, let alone a *******ization of those rules.

Honestly now - wouldn't it just be simpler for EVERYBODY if FED rules were nothing more than OBR rules with a few additions? Just like USSSA!

1. reentry
2. courtesy runners
3. force play slide rule
4. malicious contact
5. equipment specifications
6. no tobacco

That should just about do it!

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

DG Sat Mar 26, 2005 10:12pm
A FED rule book (and case book) is sent to anybody who registers and can be readily purchased without registering. The FED rules are not mysterious, just because you can't download them.

bob jenkins Sun Mar 27, 2005 04:59pm
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Another Expert Opinion
 
Quote:
Originally posted by David Emerling
Quote:
Originally posted by Michael Taylor
David:
The reason umpires say HS kids should know the Fed way of appealing is because the coach should. I don't care that Fed rules aren't available on the internet, they are available through the school they coach for. HS coaches are paid to do a job and should be expected to have a passing knowledge of the game they are paid to teach.
No argument from me on <i>that</i> point albeit somewhat utopian.

The fact is that baseball is a age old sport that most people have familiarity with almost by osmosis.

People have enough misconceptions regarding <i>OBR</i> rules, let alone a *******ization of those rules.

Honestly now - wouldn't it just be simpler for EVERYBODY if FED rules were nothing more than OBR rules with a few additions? Just like USSSA!

1. reentry
2. courtesy runners
3. force play slide rule
4. malicious contact
5. equipment specifications
6. no tobacco

That should just about do it!

David Emerling
Memphis, TN [/B]
Wouldn't it be "simpler for EVERYBODY" if LL, USSSA, Pony, etc. used FED rules, except ...?

That's what happens in basketball, and there are just as many rules differences between NBA, NCAA and FED

GarthB Sun Mar 27, 2005 06:21pm
And, as you know Bob, the same thing happens in Football. FED is the default set of rules for youth play in those states that use FED. If I'm not mistaken, in parts of Oregon, Legion baseball uses FED rules as well. It was toyed with here, but no official move has been made yet.

andrewm Sun Apr 03, 2005 07:40am
We had our first chance to try a pickoff from the windup in a USSSA league tournament yesterday. Prior to our first game I spoke with the plate ump outside the fence away from everybody. He knew about the rule and told me generally what he would look for regarding a balk. Very nice guy and helpful. Also called a great game. We didn't get a chance to try the pickoff from a windup in that game though.

In our second game we had different umps. At game time we were short one ump, so while we were waiting for the umps to show, I spoke with the one we had. He was unsure about the rule and told me he would have to call a balk. I politely mentioned the difference between OBR and FED in this particular case and he told me he would definitely read up on it when he got home. But for now, he would have to call a balk. Fair enough. With this feedback, we had planned to not try it.

Finally, the second ump arrived, who was going to be behind the plate. He was a well-known crusty old guy that generally most coaches do not like. Definitely not a guy that will stand for any arguments from the coaches. About halfway through the first inning, the base ump that I spoke with prior to the game was replaced. So we now had two umps, neither of which I had previously talked to. To make a real long story somewhat shorter, it wasn't until we were long out of the game and we made a pitching change that I wanted to try it. I told the other coaches, we had nothing to lose, and I had a good feeling about the crusty old guy. Sure enough, first pitch my son makes a perfectly legal pickoff attempt from the windup to first base. Didn't get the guy out, but other team screams balk. Our other coaches started to say something but I told them to quiet down and lets see what happens. I'll ask the ump for clarification if we get balked. The umps confer, call nothing. Offensive coach questions them, gets the answer and play moves on.

I just wanted to thank you guys for all your advice on the way to handle the situation. Keep up the good work.

David Emerling Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:07am
Quote:
Originally posted by andrewm
We had our first chance to try a pickoff from the windup in a USSSA league tournament yesterday. Prior to our first game I spoke with the plate ump outside the fence away from everybody. He knew about the rule and told me generally what he would look for regarding a balk. Very nice guy and helpful. Also called a great game. We didn't get a chance to try the pickoff from a windup in that game though.

In our second game we had different umps. At game time we were short one ump, so while we were waiting for the umps to show, I spoke with the one we had. He was unsure about the rule and told me he would have to call a balk. I politely mentioned the difference between OBR and FED in this particular case and he told me he would definitely read up on it when he got home. But for now, he would have to call a balk. Fair enough. With this feedback, we had planned to not try it.

Finally, the second ump arrived, who was going to be behind the plate. He was a well-known crusty old guy that generally most coaches do not like. Definitely not a guy that will stand for any arguments from the coaches. About halfway through the first inning, the base ump that I spoke with prior to the game was replaced. So we now had two umps, neither of which I had previously talked to. To make a real long story somewhat shorter, it wasn't until we were long out of the game and we made a pitching change that I wanted to try it. I told the other coaches, we had nothing to lose, and I had a good feeling about the crusty old guy. Sure enough, first pitch my son makes a perfectly legal pickoff attempt from the windup to first base. Didn't get the guy out, but other team screams balk. Our other coaches started to say something but I told them to quiet down and lets see what happens. I'll ask the ump for clarification if we get balked. The umps confer, call nothing. Offensive coach questions them, gets the answer and play moves on.

I just wanted to thank you guys for all your advice on the way to handle the situation. Keep up the good work.
Just out of curiosity - where were the runners? I'm assuming 1st and 2nd, or bases loaded.

Also - was your 1st baseman <i>holding</i> the runner? He should <i>not</i> have. The best way to do that pickoff play is to make it a "timing" play - where the fielder breaks for the bag <i>then</i> the pitcher makes the move.

Our team calls this a "backdoor pickoff" - it's whenever we attempt to pickoff a <i>trail</i> runner. We use that term as a reminder to the fielders that, <i>should</i> the runner end up in a rundown, our fielders are <i>not</i> to throw the ball -rather- to simply force the picked-off runner toward the advance base, thus <b>flushing</b> the more advanced runners of the base. Our ultimate goal is to put out the most advanced runner.

* * *

You got a good lesson in how common it is for umpires not to understand this rule. My guess is - if you asked 10 youth league umpires about the legality of a pickoff from the windup, you would get a split of about 50/50 on the topic.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

andrewm Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:23am
Quote:
Originally posted by David Emerling
Just out of curiosity - where were the runners? I'm assuming 1st and 2nd, or bases loaded.

Also - was your 1st baseman <i>holding</i> the runner? He should <i>not</i> have. The best way to do that pickoff play is to make it a "timing" play - where the fielder breaks for the bag <i>then</i> the pitcher makes the move.

Our team calls this a "backdoor pickoff" - it's whenever we attempt to pickoff a <i>trail</i> runner. We use that term as a reminder to the fielders that, <i>should</i> the runner end up in a rundown, our fielders are <i>not</i> to throw the ball -rather- to simply force the picked-off runner toward the advance base, thus <b>flushing</b> the more advanced runners of the base. Our ultimate goal is to put out the most advanced runner.

* * *

You got a good lesson in how common it is for umpires not to understand this rule. My guess is - if you asked 10 youth league umpires about the legality of a pickoff from the windup, you would get a split of about 50/50 on the topic.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN
We were getting spanked at the time. Made a pitching change, bringing in my son. The coach from the other team is a jerk and I would have loved to pick off his runner with a rule he didn't know about! He entered the game with a runner on first. We were holding the runner on because we've never practiced this as a team. I had only worked with my son at home on the correct move from the windup. I told him on the mound during the pitching change to act like he forgot (or didn't realize) there was a runner on first when he entered the game. It didn't work, but we do plan on working on it more in the future. Just to have in our bag of tricks. I like your play and we'll definitely implement it at some point.

Based on my survey so far, your ratio seems about right. But, the ump I spoke to yesterday that was unsure, said he'd definitely check into it because he likes finding out subtle differences in the rules between OBR and FED.

GarthB Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:39pm
Quote:
Originally posted by andrewm
We had our first chance to try a pickoff from the windup in a USSSA league tournament yesterday. Prior to our first game I spoke with the plate ump outside the fence away from everybody. He knew about the rule and told me generally what he would look for regarding a balk. Very nice guy and helpful. Also called a great game. We didn't get a chance to try the pickoff from a windup in that game though.

In our second game we had different umps. At game time we were short one ump, so while we were waiting for the umps to show, I spoke with the one we had. He was unsure about the rule and told me he would have to call a balk. I politely mentioned the difference between OBR and FED in this particular case and he told me he would definitely read up on it when he got home. But for now, he would have to call a balk. Fair enough. With this feedback, we had planned to not try it.

Finally, the second ump arrived, who was going to be behind the plate. He was a well-known crusty old guy that generally most coaches do not like. Definitely not a guy that will stand for any arguments from the coaches. About halfway through the first inning, the base ump that I spoke with prior to the game was replaced. So we now had two umps, neither of which I had previously talked to. To make a real long story somewhat shorter, it wasn't until we were long out of the game and we made a pitching change that I wanted to try it. I told the other coaches, we had nothing to lose, and I had a good feeling about the crusty old guy. Sure enough, first pitch my son makes a perfectly legal pickoff attempt from the windup to first base. Didn't get the guy out, but other team screams balk. Our other coaches started to say something but I told them to quiet down and lets see what happens. I'll ask the ump for clarification if we get balked. The umps confer, call nothing. Offensive coach questions them, gets the answer and play moves on.

I just wanted to thank you guys for all your advice on the way to handle the situation. Keep up the good work.
Congratulations on taking the "high road" with this, despite some of the suggestions you received earlier.


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