can someone help me distinguish the difference between the two. Give me FED references, explain difference in penalities, live/dead ball, etc.

In FED, there is no A/B obstruction. All obstruction is a delayed dead ball, with a minimum award of one base.

good, I had seen a reference to the two types and it made me wonder. Okay, FED game, one out, ball hit to RF, R1 is obstructed by SS after touching second. As BU I state obstruction. Play is made on R1 sliding into third. 3B tags R1 before he reaches base, then zips throw to 2B trying to get BR. R1 thinking he is out gets up and returns to dugout. Throw to second is high and goes into RF. BR gets up and runs to 3B which he reaches safely. Now, what do you do with R1? Do you state that with obstruction he was protected to 3B, so he was not out, and assume that he would of scored since BR was able to advance to 3B?

My dilemna is when we have a delayed dead ball, runner is advancing, then another play is made on a second runner. Do you have to verbalize that the protected runner is safe and at the same time get in a position to make a call on the second runner?

WOW!
 

scyguy notes:

" . . . one out, ball hit to RF, R1 is obstructed by SS after touching second. As BU I state obstruction. Play is made on R1 sliding into third. 3B tags R1 before he reaches base, then zips throw to 2B trying to get BR. R1 thinking he is out gets up and returns to dugout. Throw to second is high and goes into RF. BR gets up and runs to 3B which he reaches safely. Now, what do you do with R1? Do you state that with obstruction he was protected to 3B, so he was not out, and assume that he would of scored since BR was able to advance to 3B?"

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++

If I knew umpiring was this hard I would have quit 25 years ago.

true, but this could happen. If as R1 slides into 3rd I attempt to explain that the runner is safe, I will have a difficult time making the anticipated call at third. Let's say as BU you state R1 is safe (thinking you did it loud enough for everyone to hear) and switch your focus to 2B for play on BR, then see R1 enter dugout as you follow BR into third, call time when the smoke clears, confer with PU to make sure R1 did not advance home but went directly to dugout. After all this, do we call R1 out for vacating his base or assume he did not hear my safe call and credit him with home?

When will FED get those rules published on line ... I was going to post the relevant rule here, word for word, but don't have my book here at work.

How is this any different than making *any* call and getting in position for another? The movement you describe would happen whether or not obstruction was part of the play.

Never. If they do, no one will buy their books.

The difference is a verbal indication at 3B. My question is not centered around position, but informing runner at third that he is not out. But I thought about this last night. Doesn't the 3B coach need to understand the rules? If he cannot inform his runner to stay on base, and subsuquency advance, then what kind of coach is he? If I indicate obs when contact occurs, then the coach should know the rule. If runner leaves 3B and returns to dugout, we have an out for abandonment.

By the way, the rule for abandonment is 8-4-2p, if that is what you were refering to.

[Edited by scyguy on Mar 11th, 2005 at 08:50 AM]

Don't have my book in front of me , but read Obstruction definition...2-22,(?). I think it talks about the umpire having the authority to decide where everyone is to end up , at the end of playing action. I would recommend forgetting about "abandonment" here, unless you are 100% sure you clearly indicated your call and intentions. You are the one that has to make it clear and if not, you have the authority to rectify the situation at the end of playing action. Forget about wether there was a coach or not.

I don't think awarding R1 home in this case is out of the question. Make sure you take note if the runner comes back and tags the plate though.

Just make the call
 

Since this is FED, you could call time and make the award. When the tag is applied, call time and say obstruction, runner is safe and make the safe call.

Then nothing else can happen. Keeps it simple. This is an award in FED, so that would keep the BR at first.

If by chance you did let the play happen without calling time and R3 wanders off, you have a mess, but after the play, I would simply fix it, don't have my book but FED gives the umpire the right to rectify a situation where the umpire puts a player at a disadvantage. Go back put R1 on third via obstruction, and BR would be a 2nd since he was not put out at that base.

Thanks
David

good point, 2-22-1 does have that stipulation, but if runner is in the dugout when you kill play you are not going to instruct him to come back out and touch home. My initial thought on this situation would be to grant the run (even if he did not touch home) based on 2-22-1. This action would seem to be appropriate. But a case could be made for abandonment.

At what point do we put some of the responsiblity on the coaches? Do they understand obs? If not, why aren't they seeking understanding?

Be careful, if the runner does not touch, the defense may appeal.

I believe that good coaches no more about the rules than given credit for. We are their to assure compliance with the rules as fairly as possible. They are there to win the game. Unfortunately, there are many times that winning takes precedence over everthing else.

JUst curious, under what rule are you going to grant the runner home?

He was obstructed going to third, that's the base he's going to get under FED rules.

This is not that hard of a play, or maybe I'm just missing something here.

thanks
David

David,

In accordance with 8-3-2, I believe that is the "minimum" award.

David,
yes it is a simple play if you kill it with the slide into 3rd, then the 3B wouldn't even throw ball to second. But isn't this a delayed dead ball situation and you would be taking the opportunity away from the defense to throw out the BR at second?

Your second senerio makes good sense. Even though the BR advanced to third on the wild throw, we could send him back to second since we can only legally place R1 at third. This is more comfortable for me since I do not have to assume anything about R1 advancing home. As you say, we have no rule to allow runner to score, obs only protected him to third.

Thanks, I like this idea better than abandonment or allowing runner to touch home after going into dugout.

David I just thought about what if BR does not reach third safely? Say the wild throw gets away from 2B, BR gets up and tries to advance to third. 2B retrieves ball and throws out BR at third.

As Tim would say, this is crazy, but it could happen.

[Edited by scyguy on Mar 11th, 2005 at 01:13 PM]

I would still kill it
 

I would kill the play. This is similiar to type A obstruction in OBR rules (when the obstructed runner is being played on)

I looked in the case book and couldn't find a case play, and I don't have my BRD with me it might have a play in it.

Who made the mistake to start with? DEFENSE.

Why should I try to even think about rewarding the defense when they messed up to start with.

So, with the obstructed runner being played on call time and make the award at that point. Now if the runner at third is safe then play on of course.

This avoids all of the other what ifs.

And its going to look crazy with the umpire having to explain why I called him out at third, but he was really safe because he was obstructed, but I didn't want to ....

Thanks
David

Did I miss something here? He was obstructed going to third. So he gets third.

Did I miss a play here?

If so disregard my post

Thanks
Daivd

David I agree with killing being the simplest way, but does FED give me the authority to do so? If this is a DDB situation, then I have to give the defense the opportunity to make a play on BR at second. And if so, the ball is still alive, so if BR gets up and is thrown out at third then I have an out. Now I can kill it, go back and award R1 third base.

No, you can't kill it (by rule) in FED.

So, on the play you describe, the call on the play at third is "Safe on the obstruction". (If you call that loudly enough, play will stop and you won't have the rest of the mess.)

If play continues, let it continue, then put everyone where you think they would have ended up (with the obstructed runner getting at least one base) -- if BR gets thrown out at third, then he's out -- the obstruction didn't affect that play.

I may be wrong on this, but from reading the FED rule book, it looks like you have a dead ball when you make an award after a runner is obstructed.

FED Rule 5 Article 3...The ball becomes dead when time is taken to make an award when a catcher or any fielder obstructs a runner,..."

There is a similar note under 8-3-2.

It sounds like when you take the time to make an award of a base, and in the case of the runner being played on, the ball becomes dead because at that point, you have to call hime safe on obstruction and make an the award.

Or am I reading this wrong? and they mean that when time is taken as when the umpire calls time and makes the award, which may be done after the play on a delayed dead ball?

I wish I had a case book...

Yes, the ball is dead when you make the award.

You don't make the award until all play is finished.

Bob,
I believe you when you say you make don't make the award until after all play is finished.

But if you call at third is "Safe on the obstruction", isn't that kinda making the award? You just awarded the player the base because of obstruction.

Again, I don't have a case book, so if you could cite the proper case book play for all of us, that would be very helpful.

This is spoken to very clearly in the various softball rule codes which very closely resemble the Fed baseball code on obstruction.

In those, the ball is dead if the obstructed runner is tagged out while being awarded protection by the umpire.

As a practical mattter, I have experienced no problems administering the baseball rule in that manner. Most coaches in this area seem to expect it as that is the way they have seen it applied in softball and type b (OBR) baseball obstruction.

I will leave it to others to argue if the award (ie: the predicate to declaring the ball dead) is when you declare the runner safe due to the obstruction, or when all continuing action is finished.

Roger Greene

The runner was thrown out at third after the obstruction. There's no way, in the play provided, that the runner is going to be protected beyond third.

Your right, but I believe Mr. Jenkins described the situation above. He used the words, "at least one base".