Hi guys, after a game, sometimes thoughs come about: What if?. Suppose: OBR, no outs, bases loaded. B-R hits over the fence for a homerun, R1 missed 2nd base. After rounding third goes back to correct error. Retracing his steps passes B-R between 2nd. and 3rd.

1.-Is B-R out for passing (or being ahead of) preceeding runner? or he is not ´cause ball is dead.

2.- Is R1 out on appeal? or does umpire must signal it the moment R1 goes back after touching 3rd base.

I´d like to hear your oppinions.
the boring icon is because of the off season!

1) BR is out

2) R1 is out on appeal

edit: thought

thank you Bob

If a runner misses a base while the ball is dead, after he touches the next base, he can not return to touch the missed base.

So in your case, as soon as R1 touches third, he is no longer able to return and touch second base.

"SNIP"

"So in your case, as soon as R1 touches third, he is no longer able to return and touch."
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The trouble here is that if the runner does go back after touching his advance base, the defense, due to lack of rules knowledge, will not appeal since the runner has now touched his previously missed base the last time by, albeit illegaly and there is nothing the umpire can do about it. G.

There's no problem here. As he starts back to his base, the umpire should say, "Hey, you can't go back." This was done in that weird play in Toronto a couple years ago. Hudson awarded the guy 3rd, and then the guy went to go back, and DeMuth told him that he couldn't.

Wouldn't you be giving the defense an advantage
by telling the runner that by rule he cannot re-tag?
I'd stand by quietly,wait for a proper appeal,assuming
the defense knew the rule,and ring him up at that point.
Otherwise,the offense gets the base,and I have no out.
Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way,but I do not see
it as my job to give any player information that gives
one team any advantage over the other.The coaches need
to know the rules also.....

I agree.

Hmmmm,
 

"There's no problem here. As he starts back to his base, the umpire should say, "Hey, you can't go back." This was done in that weird play in Toronto a couple years ago. Hudson awarded the guy 3rd, and then the guy went to go back, and DeMuth told him that he couldn't."
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Please direct me to the documentation of this direction by Dana. It flies in the face of everything that Jim Evans teaches at school and camps.

I would like to know if this is another step in the "changing scene" of MLB umpiring.

Tee

[Edited by Tim C on Nov 19th, 2004 at 02:44 PM]

My fault
 

I wrote the Wendelstedt School an email regarding this play. They have informed me that I am wrong. Also, they said that the answer to this question would be posted on their site.

ump 3. would you please let me know the wendesdt site address. thanks

So if R1 can't legally go back to tag 2B, why is BR out for passing him between 2B and 3B?

7.08 Any runner is out when ... (h) He passes a preceding runner before such runner is out;...

The fact that he can't legally return to 2B doesn't mean that he can't (physically) return to 2B. His position on the basepath is independent of what he's allowed to do. 7.08h doesn't refer to whether a runner is where the rules allow him to be. If you pass another runner before he is out, then you're out, whether the other runner should be there or not.

I was unaware that under any code the umpire was supposed to say, "You can't go back."

BR hits a ground ball that F6 throws away. BR misses 1B and, with the ball dead, proceeds to touch 2B. If BR then returns to 1B to retouch, the umpire allows him to do so. If the defense does not appeal, the umpire makes no call. If the defense does appeal, the ump calls BR out and if necessary <i>then</i> informs BR, "You couldn't go back."

Abel on 3B, Baker on 2B, Charles on 1B. Daniels hits a ball over the fence. Abel runs in reverse order, causing Baker, Charles, and Daniels to "pass" him. Three outs, no runs.

[Edited by greymule on Nov 22nd, 2004 at 03:31 PM]

Here is the answer that was asked of Mr. Wendelstedt, I guess Doug is UMP3:

"Rule 7.10 APPROVED RULING (2) says that ". . . no runner may return to touch a missed base, or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base". There has been a discussion on a umpire forum that, from this, brings another question. It is, if the runner does attempt to return to one of these bases he may not return to, does the umpire tell the runner that he cannot go back? I guess Doug is UMP3:

Doug, your question is one that, instead of taking the intention of the rule, takes the literal reading. This is not what you should do in this case.

Umpires should not bring to the attention of anyone, offensively or defensively, mention of a possible appeal of a base missed or not legally tagged up from. This is some circles is considered "coaching", but most commonly among umpires is known as "putting your nose where it doesn't belong".

There are a couple of principles to remember here:

First, ALL players are responsible to know what they can and can't do. If they don't know, and they ask, you can tell them. Until then, you don't tell them anything. In this case, the runner may not return to touch the missed base for the purpose of legally touching it. It is his responsibility to know this, but also the responsibility of the defense. If they are confused by this action, and do not appeal as a result, that is their problem, not ours. If they do though, the appeal should be sustained, because as the rule says, he may not return to touch or retouch.

Never make reference to a missed base, or a base not legally tagged up from, unless it is appealed. A missed base should be considered a touched base, for scoring purposes, until the appeal is made." G.



[Edited by Gee on Nov 20th, 2004 at 09:31 AM]

I guess following the lead of other posters here,
I should crow that that is verification that my post is corrrect,huh? LOL