Help With a Scoop at First

[Peruvian]

I'm the first base umpire. B1 hits a chopper to F6, who fields and throws a short hop to F3. The play is very, very close and I call him safe.

Nobody argued or anything, but I thought back to that play this morning as I was reading my mechanics manual and was wondering if anyone had any tips for making the call on this play. I couldn't find anything in print about it.

I know we listen for the pop of the glove and the smack of the foot on the bag to aid in our decision on routine plays, but I've always had trouble with this play, and I think it is the toughest call in baseball to make on the bases.

Any thoughts?

[shickenbottom]

Timing is everything, allow yourself a moment or two to process the different sounds Thud-Pop or Pop-Thud. If you can't differentiate the two, bang him out.

Remember, the runner must beat the play to be called safe. I'm not sure of the rule reference, however, there is no such thing as a tie. Ties belong to the umpires and we like strikes and outs.

[mcrowder]

Actually, the throw must beat the runner for there to be an out... but that's neither here nor there.

I'm having trouble seeing why you have more trouble with the short hop catch by F3 than with any other play. The timing is the same (for the umpire), the sounds involved are the same, what you're looking for is the same. I don't see this as any more difficult than a normal banger at first.

[Thatballzlow]

A couple of thoughts from the one ex-MiLB ump who loves working with anyone brave enough to put on a mask...at any level:

The previous reply was DEAD ON...Timing, timing, timing. The easiest way to learn is remember the feeling you had after you made that call. Did you second guess yourself right away? If you did, you may have missed that call. Trust us, it won't be the first time. But, if take that extra half second to replay it in your mind, you'll get it.

A more advanced way of considering this play is something that you can factor in if you can think fast enough. When I was in AAA, and a player made a hell of a play in the field and I swore I only heard one sound, or really couldn't make up my mind...I gave it to the defense. I know this will cause a commotion that I'm not umpiring by the book...but think from a common sense point of view...Who won the battle??? The hitter...with his ground ball to the infield...or the pitcher, who induced it? It may not be the "rule-book lawyer" way of umpiring, but you will find that it's hard to argue with that call...the fielder just pulled an Ozzie Smith and you are going to call the guy safe?

Think about it that way...you'll find you're getting them right more often than not.

Thatballzlow

[Thatballzlow]

Originally Posted by shickenbottom

Timing is everything, allow yourself a moment or two to process the different sounds Thud-Pop or Pop-Thud. If you can't differentiate the two, bang him out.

Remember, the runner must beat the play to be called safe. I'm not sure of the rule reference, however, there is no such thing as a tie. Ties belong to the umpires and we like strikes and outs.

SHICKYBABY...I like your style! You can work with me any day!

[nickrego]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Actually, the throw must beat the runner for there to be an out... but that's neither here nor there.

I would like to add that the throw must beat the runner at 1st base only. All other bases, the runner must beat the throw / tag. (at work, and don't have my rule books to quote)

It has become common practice at all levels (90' diamond) to adopt the runner must beat the throw/tag at ALL bases.

If you don't CLEARLY see that the runner beat the throw/tag, OUT.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by nickrego

I would like to add that the throw must beat the runner at 1st base only. All other bases, the runner must beat the throw / tag. (at work, and don't have my rule books to quote)

It has become common practice at all levels (90' diamond) to adopt the runner must beat the throw/tag at ALL bases.

Okay I'm confused. Doesn't the ball have to beat the runner to any base for there to be a play? No ball no play right?

Were your trying to say that on a force play the runner has to reach the base before the fielder catches the ball and touches the base?

Were you also trying to say that on a tag play the fielder has to tag the runner before he reaches the base?

Originally Posted by nickrego

If you don't CLEARLY see that the runner beat the throw/tag, OUT.

On a tag play the throw can beat the runner to a base and the runner still be safe. There has to be a tag to have an out (on a non-force situation).

If you don't clearly see that the fielder made the tag then the runner is safe. You can't call what you don't see.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Peruvian

I'm the first base umpire. B1 hits a chopper to F6, who fields and throws a short hop to F3. The play is very, very close and I call him safe.

Nobody argued or anything, but I thought back to that play this morning as I was reading my mechanics manual and was wondering if anyone had any tips for making the call on this play. I couldn't find anything in print about it.

I know we listen for the pop of the glove and the smack of the foot on the bag to aid in our decision on routine plays, but I've always had trouble with this play, and I think it is the toughest call in baseball to make on the bases.

Any thoughts?

I simply watch the ball into the glove on the short hop, you have to be watching it anyway to see if he maintains possession etc.,

It takes practice but then my eyes move quickly to the bag and to see the BR's foot etc.,

Thanks
David

[Clint Lawson]

I believe the runner has to beat the ball to first base. But I like to get good distance from the bag so if the throw is bad I can make adjustments or ball in the dirty I can watch the ball into the glove and still see the bag and feet. They are harder to call sometimes. PROPER USE OF EYES(that is good timing)!!!

[PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by Peruvian

I'm the first base umpire. B1 hits a chopper to F6, who fields and throws a short hop to F3. The play is very, very close and I call him safe.

Nobody argued or anything, but I thought back to that play this morning as I was reading my mechanics manual and was wondering if anyone had any tips for making the call on this play. I couldn't find anything in print about it.

I know we listen for the pop of the glove and the smack of the foot on the bag to aid in our decision on routine plays, but I've always had trouble with this play, and I think it is the toughest call in baseball to make on the bases.

Any thoughts?

There are certain calls that as Papa C says are "coin flip" calls. If that's the case then as the tradition of baseball tells us we give benefit of doubt to a great play.

Let's use your play except F6 had to go deep in the hole made a great play and one hopped the ball to F3. If the call was a "coin flip" as indicated by your terminology Very close play, then I would give benefit of dount to the great play by the defense and call the runner out.

Conversely, let's take a routine play in which B1 is busting it out of the box and F4/F6 bobbles the ball and turns a routine play into a "coin flip". Again reward the effort on the part of B1 for bustimg it out of the box and give the safe call.

Pete Booth

[DG]

So a great play is one where the throw was in the dirt for a one hopper?

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by DG

So a great play is one where the throw was in the dirt for a one hopper?

It is if F6 backhands the ball deep in the hole and gets the ball anywhere near the bag on the throw in time to possibly retire the runner.


Tim.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

The timing is the same (for the umpire), the sounds involved are the same, what you're looking for is the same.

The sounds aren't the same -- there's the added sound of the ball hittinig the dirt, and the loss of velocity on the ball (and, probably, the change in the way the ball is caught) changes the sound of the ball in the glove.

As far as the "tie goes to xxxx" issue -- note the difference in wording between 6.05j (tie goes to the runner since the bag wasn't tagged *before* the runner touches the base) and 7.08e (tie goes to the defense since the runner didn't reach the base *before* the fielder tagged the base).

[nickrego]

Originally Posted by Justme

Okay I'm confused. Doesn't the ball have to beat the runner to any base for there to be a play? No ball no play right?

Were your trying to say that on a force play the runner has to reach the base before the fielder catches the ball and touches the base?

Were you also trying to say that on a tag play the fielder has to tag the runner before he reaches the base?



On a tag play the throw can beat the runner to a base and the runner still be safe. There has to be a tag to have an out (on a non-force situation).

If you don't clearly see that the fielder made the tag then the runner is safe. You can't call what you don't see.

When I say Throw/tag, that distinguishes between the two DIFFERENT play types.

But OK, I'll spell it out...

If you don't clearly see the runner beat the Tag, OUT.
If you don't clearly see the runner beat the Throw, OUT.

Also, I agree completely with Pete's assessment.

On Tuesday, I had two close plays at 1st with the same timing;

a) Slow roller hit to F6, speedster at bat. F6 bare hands the ball and makes a great throw to 1st. OUT ! (no arguments)

b) Hard grounder hit to F5, bounces off his glove, picked up by F6, thrown into the dirt and one hopped by F3. SAFE ! (no arguments)

In both of these plays, the ball to glove / runner to base, timing was the same.

Just goes to show you, that even though we have a nice set of rules, it still isn't Black and White.

[DG]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

It is if F6 backhands the ball deep in the hole and gets the ball anywhere near the bag on the throw in time to possibly retire the runner.
Tim.

No, that sounds like a good play, but maybe not good enough. A great play is concluded with a great throw to retire the runner without the 1B umpire having to question himself on the call afterwards.