Is a gross miss correctable?

[greymule]

Just got Rick Roder's 100 Problems with the Official Baseball Rules. What a terrific book. Not that too many of these plays are likely to come up in tomorrow's game, but the situations are certainly thought-provoking.

In reviewing one play that I was familiar with, I have begun to wonder at what point a runner who has committed a gross miss of a base cannot correct his mistake.

The generic play is this:

Abel on 1B. Hit and run. Baker hits a liner to right center. Abel rounds 2B and is halfway to 3B when F9 makes a diving catch. Abel, instead of retracing his steps toward 2B, runs across the diamond directly to 1B. F9's throw to 1B goes into DBT. Umpire awards Abel 3B. Abel tags 1B and then 2B on his way to 3B.

Because Abel's miss of 2B was "gross" (more than a body length), the umpire should uphold an appeal of Abel's miss of 2B in his attempt to return to 1B. If the miss had not been by more than a body length, the umpire should not uphold an appeal, since Abel touched 2B "the last time by" when he took his award.

But I'm not sure how to rule on the following plays:

Same situation, but—

A. Abel cuts across the diamond and is approaching 1B when he sees F9's throw go out of play. So instead of touching 1B, Abel runs directly to 2B, then retags 1B and proceeds to touch 2B again on his way to 3B.

Should the umpire uphold an appeal for Abel's gross miss of 2B, or did Abel, in his roundabout way, correct his error?

B. Abel cuts across the diamond and slides into 1B. The throw then goes out of play. Abel then runs to 2B (to correct his error), retreats to 1B, and then proceeds to 2B and 3B on the award.

Did Abel properly correct his gross error, or is he liable to be called out on appeal?

C. Abel cuts across the diamond and sees F9's throw go into DBT. Abel then touches 1B, runs to 2B to correct his error, retreats to 1B, and then takes 2B and 3B on his award.

Should the umpire uphold an appeal at 2B for the gross miss? Did the fact that Abel proceeded to touch 1B after the ball became dead affect his attempt to correct his error?

[Rich Ives]

I think Roder is full of it on the "gross miss". If everyone in the park knows he missed the base and the umpire tries a "close enough" excuse to call him safe all hell would break loose.

Besides, I've seen (in MLB) players called out for missing by a lot less than a body length.

[Gee]

Now there's 101 problems. I would allow an appeal in both situations. In "A" the runner touched his advance base (second) after the ball was dead therefore he is not allowed to return to first. Same thing for "B". G.
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OTE]Originally posted by greymule
Just got Rick Roder's 100 Problems with the Official Baseball Rules. What a terrific book. Not that too many of these plays are likely to come up in tomorrow's game, but the situations are certainly thought-provoking.

In reviewing one play that I was familiar with, I have begun to wonder at what point a runner who has committed a gross miss of a base cannot correct his mistake.

The generic play is this:

Abel on 1B. Hit and run. Baker hits a liner to right center. Abel rounds 2B and is halfway to 3B when F9 makes a diving catch. Abel, instead of retracing his steps toward 2B, runs across the diamond directly to 1B. F9's throw to 1B goes into DBT. Umpire awards Abel 3B. Abel tags 1B and then 2B on his way to 3B.

Because Abel's miss of 2B was "gross" (more than a body length), the umpire should uphold an appeal of Abel's miss of 2B in his attempt to return to 1B. If the miss had not been by more than a body length, the umpire should not uphold an appeal, since Abel touched 2B "the last time by" when he took his award.

But I'm not sure how to rule on the following plays:

Same situation, but—

A. Abel cuts across the diamond and is approaching 1B when he sees F9's throw go out of play. So instead of touching 1B, Abel runs directly to 2B, then retags 1B and proceeds to touch 2B again on his way to 3B.

Should the umpire uphold an appeal for Abel's gross miss of 2B, or did Abel, in his roundabout way, correct his error?

B. Abel cuts across the diamond and slides into 1B. The throw then goes out of play. Abel then runs to 2B (to correct his error), retreats to 1B, and then proceeds to 2B and 3B on the award.

Did Abel properly correct his gross error, or is he liable to be called out on appeal?

C. Abel cuts across the diamond and sees F9's throw go into DBT. Abel then touches 1B, runs to 2B to correct his error, retreats to 1B, and then takes 2B and 3B on his award.

Should the umpire uphold an appeal at 2B for the gross miss? Did the fact that Abel proceeded to touch 1B after the ball became dead affect his attempt to correct his error? [/QUOTE]

[greymule]

I think Roder is full of it on the "gross miss". If everyone in the park knows he missed the base and the umpire tries a "close enough" excuse to call him safe all hell would break loose.

Besides, I've seen (in MLB) players called out for missing by a lot less than a body length.

I suspect there's a misunderstanding here. Roder is talking only about a runner who misses a base but touches it "last time by." A gross miss cannot be corrected "last time by," but a "regular" miss can be.

[Gee]

Rich,

The last time by concept has been accepted by MLB among others.

"It is important to understand that in the original appeals process is the notion that the offense should have an equal opportunity to correct their base running errors. Appeals were not simply designed to provide easy outs for the defense, even though the offense may clearly have erred. Instead, the whole focus of the appeal rule was, and still is, principally to encourage the offense to run the bases legally, even after they have committed a base running error. Allowing that to be true necessitates giving the offense a reasonable opportunity to correct any base running errors they may make." (From my article "The Last Time By")

Also, a close miss is always appealable unless the runner touches it legally, the last time by, which is a rarity. G.
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Originally posted by Rich Ives
I think Roder is full of it on the "gross miss". If everyone in the park knows he missed the base and the umpire tries a "close enough" excuse to call him safe all hell would break loose.

Besides, I've seen (in MLB) players called out for missing by a lot less than a body length.

[Edited by Gee on Aug 31st, 2004 at 06:07 PM]

[Rich Ives]

Originally posted by greymule
I think Roder is full of it on the "gross miss". If everyone in the park knows he missed the base and the umpire tries a "close enough" excuse to call him safe all hell would break loose.

Besides, I've seen (in MLB) players called out for missing by a lot less than a body length.

I suspect there's a misunderstanding here. Roder is talking only about a runner who misses a base but touches it "last time by." A gross miss cannot be corrected "last time by," but a "regular" miss can be.

Not so. He says the same thing in his basic book page 54 Chapter 9-B-A-1 He says a baserunner is vunerable to appeal if he doesn't get within a body length the final time by. This is complete hooey as the "final" time can be the only time.

You can't say he's safe because he was "close enough".


Roder also used to at least, subscribe to the string theory.

He is also the only expert that holds that a foul tipped bounced pitch cannot be caught for an out for purposes of the uncaught third strike rule.

[greymule]

Not so. He says the same thing in his basic book page 54 Chapter 9-B-A-1 He says a baserunner is vunerable to appeal if he doesn't get within a body length the final time by. This is complete hooey as the "final" time can be the only time.

You can't say he's safe because he was "close enough".

I still think there's a misunderstanding. Rich, how would you call this play?

Abel on 1B, no outs. Baker lines to right center. Abel rounds 2B and is on his way to 3B when F9 catches the ball. Abel then retraces his steps but misses 2B by a step on his way back. As he slides back into 1B, the throw shoots through to DBT. Abel then takes his award by touching 2B and 3B.

Would you uphold an appeal of Abel's miss of 2B while returning (even though he touched 2B last time by)?

[GarthB]

Originally posted by Rich Ives


He is also the only expert that holds that a foul tipped bounced pitch cannot be caught for an out for purposes of the uncaught third strike rule.

Last email on this subject that I saw, he was re-thinking his position on that.