Gentlemen,please let me know what you think of the handling of this situation.
Local adult league (38+),R2 steals 3RD,loses helmet,time
is called.Ball is never returned to the pitcher,in order
to attempt a hidden-ball play.
Pitcher steps on rubber,R3 leads off,F5 tags runner.
PU(my partner) calls "Balk".I proceed to go to him,and
discuss the fact that the ball was out into play without
the pitcher being in possession of the ball.Partner nullifies balk call.
Was this the correct action to take by the PU? Nobody
was complaining about the balk,including the offensive
team.Also,was I correct in going to him to let him know
that the ball was previously dead,and could not be put into
play without being on the mound?
Your constructive advice is greatly appreciated.

Since the ball was not in play, I would say that you did the right thing. With the ball in play, this would obviously be a balk. I had this happen in a game once and my partner called a balk. The coaches exclaimed that the ball was not in play. We nullified the balk and I think everyone was satisified.

-Jeremiah

Since the ball was dead, there could be no balk. The hidden ball trick is IMPOSSIBLE following a dead ball as the ball has to be in possession of the pitcher, on the rubber to be put back into play.

You were correct in your call. How you tell the other ump depends on MANY factors (how well do you know them, your working relationship, etc.). In this case, you had a rule problem, it had to be corrected or there could have been a protest. You were right to let your partner know there was an issue. I hope you did so tactfully, which usually means calling time and going to your partner and talking in private. Let your partner make the correction.

As already mentioned, there can be no balk until the ball is put in play. If the pitcher toes the rubber without the ball, and the PU points to him and says "play" and then R3 steps off 3b and is tagged, then a balk should be called.

But putting the ball in play require the pitcher to possess while toeing the rubber, right? So, the ball would still be dead when R3 is tagged. And you already said that ther can be no balk during a deadball.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LDUB
[B]I agree with DG, assuming the PU is competent, he would have put the ball in play when F1 stepped on the rubber. Therefore the ball is live, and the balk should be called.</b>

Let's look at the rules:

OBR 5.11

After the ball is dead play shall be resumed when the pitcher takes his place <b>with a new ball or the same ball in his possession</b> and the plate umpire calls play. The plate umpire shall call play as soon as the pitcher takes his position on his plate <b> with the ball is his possession.</b>

Therefore the ball was not live, and no balk can be called.

[Edited by GarthB on Jul 30th, 2004 at 12:58 AM]

Yeah I know, I wasn't thinking. As soon as I posted it I realized I was wrong. I was thinking the ball is live when the PU says "play", but I wasn't thinking about the ball.

I don't know he has the ball or not when I say "play". His intent is clear.

Once again, lets look at the rule:

<i>OBR 5.11

After the ball is dead play shall be resumed when the pitcher takes his place with a new ball or the same ball in his possession and the plate umpire calls play. The plate umpire shall call play takes his position on his plate with the ball is his possession.</i>



If you don't know whether or not he has the ball, shame on you. But it doesn't change things. If you call "play" and then discover he didn't have the ball, the ball is STILL dead. The pitcher didn't meet the requirement for putting the ball in play. Therefore the ball was not live, and no balk can be called.

This isn't that hard.

Sheese,
 

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE A HIDDEN BALL TRICK AFTER A DEAD BALL.

"I don't know he has the ball or not when I say "play"."

I guess that pretty much tells us everything we need to know about DG's ability as an umpire.

Tee





[Edited by Tim C on Jul 30th, 2004 at 09:47 AM]

I understood your point the first time. I try to remember it next time I call a balk after a dead ball. And I don't think I would be ashamed that I did not know he had the ball. That is the point of the "trick".

Re: Sheese,
 

I don't think it tells you anything about me. It just gives you another opportunity to make wise cracks.

Nope,
 

The "trick" is to fool the offense not a competent umpire.

Tee

No. The point of the trick is to fool an inattentive player, not an inattentive umpire. Umpires always know the status of the ball.

If the pitcher and 3b man have a meeting with intent to pull the hidden ball trick, I have no way of knowing who has the ball when they separate. So if the pitcher toes the rubber, I don't think it is bad umpiring to call "play". Inattention has nothing to do with it. Now, as you have pointed out, if I call a balk when it is discovered that he does not have the ball, and therefore the ball could not be live, this call would be correctable, IMO.

OK,
 

I will close with the following:

It is obvious to me DG, that you do not understand the first rule of umpiring:

"Keep your eye on the ball!"

I will let your entire body of works speak for your ability as an umpire.

Tee

Balk
 

This would have been an oppotunity for you to practice preventitive umpireing. If you as the base umpire know that the pitcher does not have the ball as he starts back to the mound. Why not just tell the 3rd baseman to throw the ball to the pitcher. It might save a problem before it begins. The plate umpire may not see that the pitcher doesn't have the ball, so why not help him out. Work as a team, not as individuals

Re: Balk
 

Exactly.

As plate umpire it is POSSIBLE I might not know where the ball got to [sweeping the plate, etc], but I expect that my base umpire WILL know. If he is still staring at the vicinity of 3B, I am likely to take a look down there and notice the fielder trying to look innocent while waiting for me to call "play". At which point [the ball being dead], I am likely to ask for the ball to "examine" it, ending the charade.

If I am the base umpire, no way is a "hidden ball trick" going to catch me by suprise. I will keep my eye fixed on whoever has the ball. BTW, I have found that this tends to put the kabosh on the few attempted HBT's I've witnessed, since most base coaches seem to pick up on the fact that F1 is not on the rubber, & the base umpire is STILL watching one of the bases like a hawk, thus they don't let the runner step off the base. Eventually, everyone tires of waiting for the runner to get stupid, and we go back to playing baseball.

On the play submitted, it's umpire error, and correctable, but not by announcing BALK. If it happens [U1 calls "Play" & someone other than F1 produces the ball & "tags out" a runner]:

TIME!
Runner is NOT out, ball was not legally made live ['cause F1 didn't have it on the rubber].
YOU [fielder w/ ball] - throw the ball to F1.
YOU [F1] - DON'T DO THAT AGAIN.
Play.


[Edited by cbfoulds on Jul 30th, 2004 at 02:36 PM]

Re: OK,
 

I come here to learn and on occasion, to help others. I don't come here to be obnoxious, and constantly belittle others. That is apparently not the case for you. That seems to be your prime motivation to come on here and belittle others. Your body of comments speaks for itself. You can not imagine how very little I care what you think of me and my umpiring abilities. I am quite confident in my abilities, and I often take the little things I learn here and become better for it. You are obviously not learning anything here, you know it all, and you are just here to belittle others. It's a sad existence. You went away for awhile, and came back with shorter commentary, but you are still obnoxious. You have been and will continue to be, irrelevant to me.

Boys, boys! Yep, the idea is at least one umpire should know who has the ball, then if the hidden ball trick is tried (or any other kind of dead ball "pickoff", for that matter) the "knowing" umpire can step up and say, "The ball's still dead". No real need to get excited making that call - just point it out matter-of-factly. If a team wants to make a fuss after that, it speaks volumes about THEIR knowledge of when a balk can be called. Oh, eye contact with your partner is a very valuable tool and cannot be stressed enough. :)

Hmmmm,
 

DG says: " . . . to help others"

I actually am waiting for that to happen.

Tee

Re: Re: OK,
 

I don't have my FED rule book with me, but I believe the HBT is an ejection in FED baseball.

Re: Re: Re: OK,
 

When you get your rules book, please provide a reference.

Thanks.

Re: Hmmmm,
 

I think I have, on occassion, helped others. I don't know what your problem is, but I don't want any of it on my shoes.

[Edited by DG on Jul 30th, 2004 at 04:56 PM]

I agree.......F1's attempt is clearly deceptive not only to the base runner, but the umpires as well. This is punishable by........"THAT'S A BALK!" and make it stick...sell it......it's a balk!

I agree that it was an illegal attempt to decieve the runner, and that is a balk. But you have to remember that the ball was dead. Even thought the umpire said play, the ball is still dead. He was confused of the location of the ball, amd was mistaken in putting the ball in play.

If you allow this play to happen when the ball is dead, then where do you stop. Do you allow the batter to take second base after he was hit by the pitch?

<I>I agree.......F1's attempt is clearly deceptive not only to the base runner, but the umpires as well. This is punishable by........"THAT'S A BALK!" and make it stick...sell it......it's a balk!</i>

Balk during a dead ball. Right. Great call! That one will take you far.

If I'm the coach, "PROTEST"! The committee will laugh you off the field.

How simple can this be? The ball is DEAD! Even if the umpire says "play", it's STILL dead. I can understand the umps <I>occassionally</i> getting fooled on where the ball is, especially if F5 and F1 were very good in their sleight of hand. OK, it's not good, but it could happen to the best umps.

But once you mistakenly call, "play", realize what happened, fix <B>YOUR</b> mistake, put the runner back and tell the defense to knock it off. Get them for delaying the game if you want to, but it is NOT a balk for taking the rubber without the ball. The play was DEAD!

Hehehehehe,
 

"I agree.......F1's attempt is clearly deceptive not only to the base runner, but the umpires as well. This is punishable by........"THAT'S A BALK!" and make it stick...sell it......it's a balk!"

Please foulball, just show me anyhwere in any rule book where a balk can be called after a dead ball and before it is legally made live. Pretty simple request I would think.

Your statement just proves that some people are untrainable.

Sometimes even the internet amazes me.

Tee

[Edited by Tim C on Jul 31st, 2004 at 01:09 PM]

Re: Re: Re: Re: OK,
 

That would involve opening and reading.

Re: Hehehehehe,
 

Wow...pretty rude. I hope you don't treat your family like this. My point was from a practical standpoint. Lot's of times I see the ball is never even put in play, and play resumes. I want to get this right too, but governing the game by the "letter of law" rather then the "spirit of rule" is un-practical at times. Common sense says that deception by a pitcher is punishable by a "BALK".....for all practical purposes....when the umpire calls "play" it is live ball regardless of whether the pitcher has the ball, or is even on the rubber. However I do concede to the techinal ruling. In the meantime Tee........take a pill.

Re: Re: Hehehehehe,
 

Technical ruling? TECHNICAL RULING? <b>TECHNICAL RULING????</b>

Just so I have this straight, you are saying that you would ignore the rules and call and enforce a balk during a deadball situation because you think it is the practical thing to do?

So then it is practical to ignore a deadball? How about if the pitcher throws and picks-off a runner during a deadball. Do we ignore the rules on that, too? I mean, we know his intent, don't we?

Or, how about letting the runner from third score during a deadball?

Or........

Sorry, but the rules regarding live and dead ball situations and putting the ball in play are more than mere technicalities. If you're looking for a rule to ignore, you should look elswhere.

Re: Re: Re: Hehehehehe,
 

Exactly. You can't make a dead ball live unless the pitcher has it on the mound. You calling a dead ball LIVE doesn't necessarily make it so.

Now, if the ball is ALREADY live, great, call a balk. But if it's not, have the stones to admit you made a mistake and move on.

--Rich

Well,
If the ball is dead, then the defense has done nothing other than delay the game. So I feel a warning is in order here. Tell them to get the dead ball to the pitcher as quickly as posible. And since balls or strikes can't be awarded. Ejection is the rule.

WOW!
 

Foulball:

Please, give me a break.

It is not a balk, you can't sell it to any of the authoritive opinons on this site.

Some people aren't worth the time. You are one.

Anyway, I didn't know they had leading off in Little League.

Tee

"Ejection is the rule"??

WHAT RULE?!!?

Warning = "Don't do that!" ?? Sure. But what in the #@!! are you going to eject them for? Making you feel like a bozo for calling "play" w/o knowing where the ball was?

Rich is right: have the stones to acknowledge YOUR error, get the ball into F1, "Play ball".

Oh, please. You are giving over-officiousness a name here. Warn them for what? Tell them they can't do that with a dead ball and move on. Nothing to get excited for, nothing to warn, certainly nothing to eject for.

At some point the game has to go on. And if one allows the game to be delayed again and again, then control of the game is lost.
It's real simple lets play ball. And if they refuse then what. Dead ball, can't award a ball. The game has to continue.

Keep the game flowing. Don't tell me that an umpire is not in control of the flow of the game.
There is a rule that the pitcher has 20 secs to get the ball and make a pitch. Well he can't do it if he does not have the ball. So what. let's wait until they play their little hidden ball trick or other "DEADBALL" deceptive tricks that has nothing to do with the spirit of the game. I am not going to allow it.

I haven't ejected anyone, other than mandatory, 'malicious contact', in I don't know how long. I'm not looking to eject anyone.
But if I give a legal instruction and someone or team refuse to obey. I have no other recourse than ejection or forfeit.

If I saw a team trying to do a hidden ball after a dead ball I would tell the fielder to get the ball back to the pitcher. If he refuses I would inform the coach to inform his player to get the ball back to the pitcher. If he still refuses then there is no recourse other than ejection or forfeit. Unless you have another. Which I will entertain..

You are not serious?

Let's see:

U: Ball's dead, guys, get it into F1, OK?
Fielder: Nah, Blue, I'm gonna hold it here, so's I can do the HBT on this here runner and steal an out after you say play, even though the pitcher ain't got the ball. . .

Yeah, like that will ever happen and FORCE you to eject somebody.

Slowly, now:

IF you screw up and signal "Play" with F1 on the rubber minus the ball; and
IF some genius on the defense has set this up to try the HBT [because they are even dumber than you, and don't know about the ball not being legally in play until F1 has it on the rubber OR about the balk this causes if the ball had remained live]; and
IF the said grinning cretin produces the ball after you say "Play" and "tags" a runner;

"U: TIME, ball is still dead!
Runner, back to your base!
YOU [pointing to G.Cretin]- get the ball to Pitcher!
[Pointing to F1]- DON'T DO THAT.
OK? Play!"

WARNING [as in "If that happens again, somebody is ejected"]?: NEVER
EJECTION?: Oh, please! Get a grip.

Crap from anybody?: Not bloody likely.

What if I don't screw up. Tell the player to get the ball back to the pitcher and he refuses?

You make it out like that, refusal to obey instructions, never happens so there need not be a rule for getting the game back in progress.
I have a grip.

What if he said. "Blue you know that ump behind the plate?" I say "you mean cbfoulds?" "Yeah him, how in the hell do you ump with him?" I say , "Well I don't really, he has everything under control, I'm just out here to fullfill a slot".
You know a person can "what if" everything that is written here. And start a bunch of crap.
People have oppinions, just because you don't agree doesn't mean you have to bash them or try to make them out to be a fool.
Like I have posted before here.
Some of those here that choose to nickpick at everything posted here. And then have some Smarta$$ remark to say about it. Are probally the worst umps that ever stepped on a field.
They say one thing here, but probally ump an entirely different way.
I worked with inmates for approximately 15 yrs. I had to know human nature to make it. And one thing that I learned was that those that always publicly pointed out preceived fault of fallacy of others were not to be trusted. They usually where back stabing liars.

A man asked a simple question. Or described a situation. Several persons gave their oppinion. But as usual their opinions required a thrashing by words from the same small group of players here who try to control every aspect of this site.

Since I have been reading and posting here. I have learned that I have made mistakes in my interpretation of the rules.
I learned that a pitcher does not have to be off the rubber to make an appeal.
I cannot charge a coach a trip when he yells from the dugout for his pitcher to back off the rubber so he can converse with him.
I also have learned that no matter what I write that someone here will find a way to turn it around to fit their need to confront or make fun of me.

That's cool. Because I am a fool for even responding to those who choose to point out my umpiring deficiencies in a most unprofessional mater.

Re: Re: Hehehehehe,
 

Then how is any runner ever picked off?

"Deception" is not a balk; "Illegal deception" is.

What was described in the play is not "illegal deception".

Hehehehe,
 

"What if I don't screw up. Tell the player to get the ball back to the pitcher and he refuses?

"You make it out like that, refusal to obey instructions, never happens so there need not be a rule for getting the game back in progress.
I have a grip.

"What if he said. "Blue you know that ump behind the plate?" I say "you mean cbfoulds?" "Yeah him, how in the hell do you ump with him?" I say , "Well I don't really, he has everything under control, I'm just out here to fullfill a slot".
"You know a person can "what if" everything that is written here. And start a bunch of crap.
People have oppinions, just because you don't agree doesn't mean you have to bash them or try to make them out to be a fool.
"Like I have posted before here.
Some of those here that choose to nickpick at everything posted here. And then have some Smarta$$ remark to say about it. Are probally the worst umps that ever stepped on a field.
"They say one thing here, but probally ump an entirely different way.
"I worked with inmates for approximately 15 yrs. I had to know human nature to make it. And one thing that I learned was that those that always publicly pointed out preceived fault of fallacy of others were not to be trusted. They usually where back stabing liars.

"A man asked a simple question. Or described a situation. Several persons gave their oppinion. But as usual their opinions required a thrashing by words from the same small group of players here who try to control every aspect of this site.

"Since I have been reading and posting here. I have learned that I have made mistakes in my interpretation of the rules.
I learned that a pitcher does not have to be off the rubber to make an appeal.
"I cannot charge a coach a trip when he yells from the dugout for his pitcher to back off the rubber so he can converse with him.
"I also have learned that no matter what I write that someone here will find a way to turn it around to fit their need to confront or make fun of me.

"That's cool. Because I am a fool for even responding to those who choose to point out my umpiring deficiencies in a most unprofessional mater."

***********

This ties for the dumbest post ever made on the interent.

Tee

rule 8.04
 

teacherspit...

Rule 8.04(OBR)says:"When bases are UNOCCUPIED,the pitcher shall deliver the ball to the batter within 20 seconds after he receives the ball.
What does this rule have to do with the situation I described?

OK OK OK

Tell him once. If he doen't comply, do a soccer ref number on him. (Shoot Him)

If the Team refuses to have his body off the field in 3 minutes, Shoot them.

Then while your at it, shoot everyone else and as your leaving the field blowing the smoke off the barrel, say to youself,"yep, I done controlled that game"

YA HOOOO

Re: Hehehehe,
 

NO, I made it out that THIS particular "refusal" will never happen, thus your "need" to eject somebody to "get the game back in progress" will never happen.

I might think more of this point, were it not for the fact that it was YOU, t-s-, who came up with the "what if" post. And it is not "nitpicking" to inquire exactly what rule you are claiming supports your opinion. YOU posted "Ejection is the rule" in this situation. I called you out on WHAT RULE IS THAT? I am still waiting for an answer.

Yes, he did: go back and read it. In the actual play, the umpires realized that there could not be a dead-ball balk in this situation: the question asked was "Did we do the right thing?"

The question was answered, with reasons, by several upper-level umpires: "Yes, you did the right thing". Then a coluple of knuckleheads [incl. you] chimed in to argue that there should be a balk in this situation. No "thrashing" took place until the knuckleheads persisted in arguing their view, despite being unable to cite any actual rule, and despite having the correct rule(s) cited to them chapter and verse.
Then you opened the "ejection" line of argument, and again, several folks pointed out that you were off base; at which point you offered your "What if they don't do what I tell them?" justification. That was just silly, and I don't feel at all meanspirited for pointing that out.

t-s-, you have been "confronted" a couple of times for arguing those (and similar) incorrect positions, and each time, you have been asked to cite the "rule" you claim supports your decision. Except for incorrect reliance on 9.01(c), you usually fail to respond, except by making even wilder, unsupported and unsupportable "rulings" [going from supporting a dead-ball "balk" to ejecting someone for trying the HBT on a dead ball, for example].

This makes it hard to take you seriously.

Not all opinions are of equal value. When you persist in arguing against the "black letter law" of the rule book and the authoritative opinion of more knowledgeable people, your "contribution" is devalued by your acts. In every case that I have been involved in, your "deficiencies" were identified and correction offered in a reasonably "professional" manner. You refused to accept correction, and thereby opened yourself to less gentle treatment.

You remind me of a fellow in my Assn [hell, for all I know, you could be him]-

Fellow calls a balk; gets told by his very senior partner [NOT me] that it is not a balk - argues, refuses to "accept correction". After game, is shown in black and white IN THE RULE BOOK that what he called IS NOT A BALK. His response? [I SWEAR I am not making this up]: "The book is wrong!"

It is hard not to ridicule folks like that.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OK,
 

Rich - don't go there. You have no idea how much time I spend in the rule book. But since you brought it up, as it is now August, I haven't looked at a FED rulebook since May. However, I have spent about 30 minutes a day in my OBR rule book this summer. During the FED season, I do the same in my FED rulebook. I will pull out my FED book tonight and post my answer. If I am wrong - I will eat crow.

As for this whole balk/no balk conversation - I pulled this info off the J/R website - http://www.rulesofbaseball.com/versions.html

“It is a balk if a pitcher does not have the ball but assists in a try to deceive a runner by


being on or astride the rubber, [8.05 Approved Ruling-a]
feigning a pitching position or pitch [8.05i], or
putting the rosin bag in his glove to make it appear he has the ball.

This is known as the ‘hidden ball trick.’ It is not necessarily a balk if a pitcher in this situation is on the dirt of the mound. [NFHS 6-2-5] [NCAA 9-3f]”

From
The Rules of Professional Baseball
By Jaksa and Roder


The NFHS and NCAA rule references indicate that it may be a balk if a pitcher is on the dirt of the mound during the hidden ball trick in a high school or NCAA game. Here are the NFHS and NCAA rule differences that you would find in the appendix:


NFHS 6-2-5 requires a balk if the pitcher is within 5 feet of the pitching rubber without the ball.
NCAA 9-3f requires a balk if the pitcher steps onto the dirt of the pitching mound without the ball.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OK,
 

The J/R quote has been brought up before and Rick Roder has, in an old email, I believe, agreed that it is predicated on the ball being live.

The same applies to the FED and NCAA situations. They are predicated on a live ball. There is no balk when the ball is dead.

Why is this so hard to understand?

Yep, Garth . . .
 

As we all know these examples are related to live ball situations.

This thread started with a simple issue:

After a dead ball is it possible to have a hidden ball trick?

The answer is elementary:

No, as it is impossible to make a ball live without the proper procedure. It is impossible to have a balk with a dead ball and the ball cannot be placed into live action without proper steps.

This simply gives us one of the TWO examples of "do overs" in baseball.

I don't think people "don't get it," I just think they want to swim upstream against authoritive opinion.

And Peter, we know you hit my response square on the head. A Home run!

Tee



[Edited by Tim C on Aug 2nd, 2004 at 05:50 PM]

Re: Re: Re: Re: OK,
 

My mistake. I was thinking of the fake tag provision - FED 3-3-1a. I can't find anything about the HBT.

[QUOTE] originally posted by GarthB
The J/R quote has been brought up before and Rick Roder has, in an old email, I believe, agreed that it is predicated on the ball being live.

I wasn't aware of the Roder comments...just trying to add to the argument, based on additional comments I have seen.

In my opinion - no balk w/out putting the ball in play. Can't put the ball in play unless the provisions in rule 5-1-4 are satisfied.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OK,
 

Theory: Because people can't believe that the defense can do something "wrong" without a penalty.

Re: Yep, Garth . . .
 

<i> Originally posted by Tim C </i>

<b> I don't think people "don't get it," I just think they want to swim upstream against authoritive opinion.

And Peter, we know you hit my response square on the head. A Home run!

Tee </b>

Common TEE we have all called a dead ball balk. (BIG GRIN!) The game is going on 3 hours, Temps in the 90's Game winning run on third and in our heads we hear that familiar ballpark voice " BEER HERE! BEER HERE!. I've got a Dead ball balk, game over, time to go and get some AC and a cold one.

Pete Booth