OK, I know I've seen this discussion before, but can't search so here goes....

OBR 8.01 Pitcher shall take signs from the catcher while standing on the rubber.

Is this a balk?

I had it happen last night in Dixie Boys District trny and I chose to warn the pitcher. He had his foot behind the rubber and looked in for his signs, then moved his foot in front of the rubber and continued into set position.

I was BU and PU says 'OK you can warn him, but that's a balk.'

IMO, it depends on intent. There is no penalty associated with 8.01, so I defer to the note to Umpires on purpose of the balk rule. "Prevent pitcher from deliberately deceiving the base runner".

If I had believed he was trying to simulate his stretch and set in order to draw the runner off and then throw to 1B without having to step, I would have called a balk.

There is no penalty listed in OBR for not taking signs while in contact with rubber, unless he takes sign while off the rubber and then quickly steps on and quick pitches, which would be a balk with a runner on base. I think the purpose of this rule is to prevent the pitcher from deceiving the batter, whether any runners on base or not, by taking the sign off the rubber and then stepping on an delivering a pitch in less time than normal, catching the batter by surprise. Even if it is not a quick pitch, it can still catch the batter by surprise if it takes 3-4 seconds less than normal (ie the normal time to get a sign).

No, it is not a balk, it is just not supposed to be done.

It's another one of those baseball myths.

It's not a myth, it's a mis-application of a rule. In FED it is a balk (FED 6-1-1 PENALTY @end of ART3)

Come on now
 

Sure its in the FED book, but how many times have you called a ball on the batter for an illegal pitch with no runners on.

If you have then that would be the first I've seen.

We choose to ignore this since there is nothing gained, making application as in OBR etc.,

I don't have my books with me, but would like to see how FED has interpreted this.

Thanks
David

Sorry, I am not familiar with FED rules... and never even heard of them before coming to this board.

Here.... High School rules = OBR

Not particularly familiar with Dixie Boys rules, but I wondered the same thing. Yes, it is a balk in FED, but I'm reasonably certain that Dixie Boys does not play by FED.

Had the exact same thing in a game the other night that I was watching; I pulled out the rulebook and sure enough, there is no penalty. Of course, this guy took it on himself to be the "Balk Nazi," calling at least 12 balks over 2 games. He called everything he could think of.

No problem, I kind of figured that. I just wanted to make everyone aware that there really is a stupid balk rule for this - it's just in another rule book.

I think the PENALTY is referring to the shoulder turn, prohibited by 6-1-1, since 6-1-1 also says the pitching regulations begin when the pitcher steps on the rubber. I can't find a case book play on this.

The shoulder turn is no longer a balk in FED, with the recent changes. And I can't imagine anyone not making THAT change immediately.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DG

Quote:

I think the PENALTY is referring to the shoulder turn, prohibited by 6-1-1, since 6-1-1 also says the pitching regulations begin when the pitcher steps on the rubber. I can't find a case book play on this.

Partially right, the interpertation includes taking the signs off the rubber. Our question always was "So when is the catcher really throwing out the signs?" To be honest, I enforce from when the pitcher makes intentional contact with the rubber (FED) and go from there. I still call it don't do that in FED.

I think the rule change is for 2005. Anyone playing FED now, is still under the current rule. The new rule will still prohibit turning the shoulders while in windup position, and after coming set.

[Edited by DG on Jul 9th, 2004 at 01:43 PM]

What Rich Said
 

I agree with you there Rich. Go ahead and make the change. Its summer ball now and none of the coaches know the rule anyway.

That's a no brainer.

Thanks
David

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ozzy6900

Quote:

Originally posted by DG Quote: I think the PENALTY is referring to the shoulder turn, prohibited by 6-1-1, since 6-1-1 also says the pitching regulations begin when the pitcher steps on the rubber. I can't find a case book play on this. Partially right, the interpertation includes taking the signs off the rubber. Our question always was "So when is the catcher really throwing out the signs?" To be honest, I enforce from when the pitcher makes intentional contact with the rubber (FED) and go from there. I still call it don't do that in FED.

In OBR it is an infraction of 8.01 but it is <i>not</i> a balk, as someone also pointed out.

In FED it is but it ain't.

Before the rule made it into the OBR, to throw off (annoy) batters, the pitcher would take his signs from behind the rubber, step onto the rubber -- and take them again!

Sometimes, when that happened, the batter stepped out of the box. So the pitcher stepped off the rubber, and the dance started again.

The rule was designed to prevent such delays.

Nowadays, the pitcher takes his sign from the coach, steps onto the pitcher, and pitches. My advice: If the pitcher does not delay (take them again from the catcher, for example) forget about it.

But if he does delay, make him stop: Tell the catcher not to crouch until he's on the rubber.

[Edited by Carl Childress on Jul 9th, 2004 at 02:55 PM]

The intent of the rule about taking signs off the rubber is to prevent a pitcher from doing so, quickly stepping on the rubber, coming set and throwing a pitch. Doing so does not allow any runners from being able to get their leads. It is NOT a balk. Rule book says to warn the pitcher, then if he continues to do so, eject him. I have yet to eject a pitcher for this, however I have called time and asked the pitcher to take his signals from the rubber and notified the coach of what was happening. 99/100 the pitcher just doesn't know what he's doing, but that one other time...

I'm sorry, but the intent was not to prevent a quick pitch. The intent was to prevent delay. Of course, it is technically a ball/balk in FED and NCAA. Only in OBR is it a "Don't do that."

BTW: The OBR rule book says nothing about giving a warning. Here's the entire material dealing with taking signs off the rubber: "Pitchers shall take signs from the catcher while standing on the rubber." (8.01) Your idea that the regulation prevents pitchers from quick pitching is relevant only after the pitcher disengages the rubber after taking his signs: "Pitchers may disengage the rubber after taking their signs but may not step quickly onto the rubber and pitch. This may be judged a quick pitch by the umpire."

Papa C, of course, is absolutely correct. I do want to add, however, that the way the rule avoids that delay is by establishing uniformity in taking signs in all of baseball. It was an effort to speed up the preparation process between pitchers and batters by defining a guideline for what the batter can expect from the pitcher.

When the pitcher toes the rubber, he looks in for his sign. It has become routine in baseball. The batter can expect a certain amount of time between the pitcher taking the rubber and the delivery of the pitch. If, after taking his signs, the pitcher takes an unreasonable amount of time in delivering the ball, the batter can be granted a time out and it all starts over again.

As is the case with many of the rules of baseball, this one was intended to help the hitters.

Dixie plays by OBR with a few minor changes which are
listed in a small book they publish. They used to have all of the rules published in their book but they failed to get permission from MLB and were told to stop printing their rules. Speaking of this I was calling with a fellow
blue just last Tuesday who told me the day before had been
calling a Dixie State Tournament and balked in the winning
run in the bottom of the 7th because the pitcher took his
signs from the catcher off the rubber. I was shocked, and
of course he argued he made the right call.

The umpire should be ashamed of himself for making such a call in the 7th inning.

If the pitcher did it in the 7th then he also did it earlier in the game and if he wants to booger pick do it then.

Don't wait until a game ending situation and make such a stupid call.

Sorry but that's very very poor umpiring.

Thanks
David

Can a pitcher take signals directly from a coach?

Sure, as long as he simulates taking signs from the catcher to meet the requirements of the rules. I don't worry about where the signs come from as long as the catcher knows what's coming.

Ok,
But could not leave a door open for other than taking signals to instructions?

Coaches give instructions to defensive players all the time. They bring the infield in, or shift the outfielders around depending on the situtation.

Yes I agree.
But what about giving instructions to the pitcher. When would one count a trip against a coach? Is it not a trip if the coach calls his catcher over, tells him something. Then the catcher goes to the pitcher?

You would serioulsy charge a trip to the manager when he yells something out of the dugout between pitches to the pitcher? I'm not talking about F1 going to the dugout, but when he is in the field.

I'm not either talking about F1 going to the dugout. Wouldn't it be a trip if the coach while giving signals, decided he gave the wrong signal and yelled for the pitcher to step off and give another signal?

WHAT RULE makes this a trip??
And don't tell me 9.01(c); there are numerous rules which define when a trip is to be charged.
What is so darn hard about officiating the game based on the actual rules, so that you feel compelled to make up these dumba$$ "rules"??

Here's a tip. Let the game come to you. Don't go looking for stuff.

Sir,
I was asking a question not making a statement.

The answer then, is a resounding NO.

The answer is YES, on going to speak to the catcher, or calling the catcher over, who then goes to speak with the pitcher, and the resounding NO, on hollering instructions from the dugout.

Oops!?
I guess I misunderstood. "Wouldn't it ..." usually suggests that you believe the statement in your question to be true. 'Course the misunderstanding could also be based in part on your proud claim (on another thread) to have "called a trip on [a] coach from his dugout".

So, to answer both your question and my own:
NO, it is not a trip if Coach yells instructions from the dugout [because there is NO RULE making this a trip]; however, there are rules which require a trip to be charged if Coach takes Time to speak with a defensive player (other than F1), who then goes out to talk to the pitcher.

And, to rephrase my original question: where do these dumba$$ "rules" come from, which are not in any rule book I know of?