This just happened...first inning...bases loaded Chicago White Sox vs. Chicago Cubs. Gload rips one down the right field line and Charlie Rulliford (1B umpire) rules it fair for a grand slam. Sosa comes in and Lee go out to argue the call. PU comes up and whole crew gathers for about ten seconds. THE ORIGINAL CALL WAS CORRECTED/OVER RULED/CHANGED whatever semantics you want to use. The ball is ruled foul and four runs are pulled off the board.

I just thought that you'd appreciate the fact that the best umpires in the world (remember they are full time and work more games than any other professional sport), sometimes get a JUDGEMENT CALL wrong and have the guts to get it right. You know that it will be all over SportsCenter and they will be laughed at for a while. But someone on that crew decided that the call was wrong, needed to be fixed and didn't have a problem doing it.

Way to go Blue!

where's Rut now?

Surely even you recognize the difference between this and the travesty that McClelland pulled last year in the playoffs.

Did the PU come up before Sosa and Lee argued and overrule Reliford without provocation? No, because he shouldn't. The umpire got more information from the rest of the crew and changed his own call. Likely, he lost the ball and was thrilled that other members of his crew were able to help out.

You may dismiss this as "semantics" but it is very important. Had Reliford refused to seek help or was convinced that he got it right, the other umpires can't just jump in and change a call.

I'm open to admitting when I got one wrong and am willing to change a call when necessary and when it is clear I got one wrong. But there's a right way and a wrong way to do this. For an umpire to go out to Reliford on his own with nobody asking him to do so would not be right and, with the exception of the McClelland play last year, is never done.

Nope, I'm here - you're not
 

[/B][/QUOTE]

You may dismiss this as "semantics" but it is very important. Had Reliford refused to seek help or was convinced that he got it right, the other umpires can't just jump in and change a call.

I'm open to admitting when I got one wrong and am willing to change a call when necessary and when it is clear I got one wrong. But there's a right way and a wrong way to do this. For an umpire to go out to Reliford on his own with nobody asking him to do so would not be right and, with the exception of the McClelland play last year, is never done. [/B][/QUOTE]

Rich,
I'm sitting at the game right now. I am in a right field line corporate suite. I am one of three Cub fans the rest are (ugh) Sox devotees. When the call happened, we did all we could to hear what was being said...no use. Relliford didn't move and got a horsesh*t look at the ball, but called it anyway. Exactly what you said wouldn't happen, did. The third base ump came in and told the PU what really happened. Relliford shrugged and shook his head when the call was being discussed. By the way, the plate ump signalled it and Relliford took the heat from Guillen.

Semantics are important. Read all of my posts. I have NEVER said that I would just jump in and change a call. In fact, I specifically said what should occur and gave examples that I was involved in. If you see a blown call - get together, discuss and get it right. That is what happened. I'm going to go gloat now. The Cubs are winning and my opinion was just backed by the big boys. Sorry if you don't agree.

You may dismiss this as "semantics" but it is very important. Had Reliford refused to seek help or was convinced that he got it right, the other umpires can't just jump in and change a call.

[/B][/QUOTE]They can't do that in basketball either. The calling official is the only official that can change a call. Basketball has very specific rules against any official overruling another official. :D

Here comes the green needle...
 

Wanna bet?

If all three crew mates said that they saw it differently and he refused to make it right, it would be his last day in the bigs. By the way, he didn't change his call. The home plate ummpire did.

The scrutiny he is under is intense and he realizes that every call he makes we'll be dissected on SportsCenter. The last thing they want is a live and die by the call. If you haven't noticed, they are slowly making the profession more human.

The other wonderful thing about this call was its judgement nature, I could have sworn that you and Rut both commented that judgement calls don't get corrected/over ruled/ changed. I gave you a specific example of a basketball game that refuted your statement regarding this same scenario. You still insist it can't happen, so I guess Texas tech should file a protest. Don't watch the highlights, that way your fantasy can continue. We'll all be wrong and you and Rut can live happily ever after.

Re: Here comes the green needle...
 

Stick with baseball. :rolleyes:

Peace

Re: Here comes the green needle...
 

I do not call basketball, but you are wrong on this issue. Two rules were posted to cite that you were wrong. You admit that you only do baseball, so it is perfectly understandable for you to be mistaken about a basketball rule. But why can you not admit that you made a mistake? You were wrong. No one is insulting your baseball knowledge, all that was said was that you were incorrect in you knowledge of a specific basketball rule, and there is nothing wrong with that. But there is something wrong with not being able to admit that you were wrong.

Re: Nope, I'm here - you're not
 

You may dismiss this as "semantics" but it is very important. Had Reliford refused to seek help or was convinced that he got it right, the other umpires can't just jump in and change a call.

I'm open to admitting when I got one wrong and am willing to change a call when necessary and when it is clear I got one wrong. But there's a right way and a wrong way to do this. For an umpire to go out to Reliford on his own with nobody asking him to do so would not be right and, with the exception of the McClelland play last year, is never done. [/B][/QUOTE]

Rich,
I'm sitting at the game right now. I am in a right field line corporate suite. I am one of three Cub fans the rest are (ugh) Sox devotees. When the call happened, we did all we could to hear what was being said...no use. Relliford didn't move and got a horsesh*t look at the ball, but called it anyway. Exactly what you said wouldn't happen, did. The third base ump came in and told the PU what really happened. Relliford shrugged and shook his head when the call was being discussed. By the way, the plate ump signalled it and Relliford took the heat from Guillen.

Semantics are important. Read all of my posts. I have NEVER said that I would just jump in and change a call. In fact, I specifically said what should occur and gave examples that I was involved in. If you see a blown call - get together, discuss and get it right. That is what happened. I'm going to go gloat now. The Cubs are winning and my opinion was just backed by the big boys. Sorry if you don't agree. [/B][/QUOTE]

You act as if everything the big boys does automatically makes it right for what we do. While I'm very interested in what they do and I'm willing to consider it for the amateur level since they are the best umpires in the world, that doesn't mean you're "right" and others are "wrong."

I sincerely doubt that Reliford would get fired if he refused to change a call, too. There is still a union, even though their power isn't what the old union once had.

That explains everything.
 

Now I see what is wrong with you. :D

Peace

Re: Nope, I'm here - you're not
 

I agree that this is a call that could be seen well by someone not right on the foul line. The 3rd base umpire has a great shot to be able to see the ball go either in front or behind the foul pole. But this part does not make sense to me, if Reliford did not see the play, then whey did he call the ball fair? If I am unsure about a call, I would ask my partners for help before I made the call. I think it would have looked a whole lot better if the umpires could have just gotten together and made one call and stuck with it. It would also have save Reliford a lot of grief that he got from Guillen.

Windy, I very specifically said that a basketball call cannot be overruled. Nothing's changed. It still can't be overruled. In the Texas Tech game, the official changed his own call. He was NEVER overruled by another official because NCAA rules do not permit that. I cited the NCAA rule that states that exact fact very,very explicitly. I ain't gonna waste my time citing it again. You WERE wrong then. You are STILL wrong now.

At no time, did either Rut or I state that a basketball call couldn't be corrected or changed. We did state that a call could only be corrected or changed by the official that originally made the call. However, at NO time can that official EVER BE OVERRULED BY ANOTHER OFFICIAL! You don't overrule yourself.

At least you admitted why you started this same old/same old crap up again by posting a new thread on an old theme that rightfully got shut down- so you could GLOAT. If it feels good, hey, go ahead and do it. That's an admirable trait to have - fer sure.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jul 3rd, 2004 at 03:09 AM]

JR,

He is a Cub fan. They get excited about things that have no real meaning. Just like being excited about being in first place in May. I do not expect him to act any differently when talking about this issue. Also like Rich said, the umpire that made this mistake changed the call himself.

I had a play during this past baseball season where my partner helped me. I was the PU. There was a runner on 1st and 2nd with 1 out I believe. There was a pitch in the dirt (I could not see it hit the dirt) on a swinging 3rd strike. The catcher completely blocked me off from an angle on the play and the batter start running to first base. The batter/runner made first cleanly, because the throw to first was an errant throw and pulled the first baseman off the base. My partner comes right to me after the play is dead (like we had talked about in our pregame on situations like this) and we had a talk away from the coaches and players. He told me that the ball was caught by the catcher, which made the batter/runner out immediately. I completely agreed with him because I did not have the best look at the play. I was the one that made the signal for the batter being out after our conversation. Not my partner, but me. I took his information and changed my own call. How you are suppose to do it. Just like in Basketball. The same procedure applies. Similar language in the rulebook applies. My partner that day is a D1 and Minor League Umpire as well. Anyone from our area knows him and that is how we handled that situation.

Peace

Re: Re: Nope, I'm here - you're not
 

I disagree. Reliford called what he saw (even if it was "wrong"). His call becomes the "default" decision -- overturned only with clear evidence. If he didn't make a call, what would have happened if no one else saw it? That would be a worse situation.

As far as the word "override" is concerned, I prefer "provided additional information and the call was changed." Sure -- "override" describes that, but it is too often heard as "unilaterally changed another umpire's call."

The problem with using it is that too many coaches, players, umpires buy into the belief that the plate umpire can "override" any decision the base umpire makes. So, in a youth game, BU Young Reliford makes a call on a play at first, and the coach screams, "Hey PU -- you've got to override that call. The MLB umpires overrode the BU's call in teh Sox-Cubs game last week."

(It's like the term "reach" in basketball -- "reach" is a good layman's description of a kind of foul, but not all reaches are fouls.)

1st and 2nd with one out? Even if the third strike goes uncaught the batter is out. How did neither one of you notice this when you had your conversation?

It was a long time ago.
 

I told the story incorrectly. There was just a runner on 2nd. The runner on 2nd base advanced to 3rd. And I remember the coach wanting us to send the runner back to 2nd after we declared the batter/runner out.

Peace

Re: It was a long time ago.
 

Ok that makes sense now.

The change of calls
 

With the new acceptance to change calls at the pro level, all the little people seeing it on TV have definitely caught on.

Championship game of the last day of a tournament last weekend (my 5th game of the day). My partner and I discussed real briefly that I would watch for the pulled foot and tag at first if I could and that if he wanted help he would go to me before his call.

Sharply hit ball hit to F9 who was playing in. F9 throws to F3 and my BU calls B1 out.

Some woman from behind the fence behind the plate on first base extended starts screaming that F3 was off the base. In this specific case, I disagreed with her.

The coach for the offense does a little jig, skips out of the dugout and yells over to me, "Can't I appeal that call to you?" I look at the coach, "No coach. You can't. Let's play!"

In a different game, my partner and I used a different method. If one of us felt we had information that could potentially alter the call, we would not go back to our position and would hold eye contact with our partner. A situation came up. I stood where I was and looked at my BU. He called time. He took the first step towards me for our meeting. He changed his call. If he felt his call was right, he wouldn't have changed anything.

Changing calls is becoming more acceptable. But, as we have discussed so vehemently, there are certain times and certain ways to go about it. Discuss it in your pregame. It doesn't have to be as difficult as it has been made out to be.

The wrong issue is being discussed.
 

I do not think anyone is complaining that a call can be changed. But there is disagreement as to who does it and what procedure should be followed.

The only person that should change a call is the umpire that made it. And if there is something that is obvious like a dropped ball or a home run call, the umpires should have no problem changing the call. But to suggest that you see something different on a call you did not make, then change the call is ridiculous. That is really all that this discussion from at least my end has been about. But when you talk about pulled feet or tag or no tag calls, it better be the calling umpire that asks for help, and then gets it from his partner.

We all make mistakes and should not be stubborn to admit the real obvious ones. But the bang, bang calls that where no obvious situation took place, I do not feel that an umpire should ask for help if they saw the play. And a partner should not take it upon themselves to give information that has not been discussed in a pregame.

Peace

LDUB -

I read your note about my basketball mention. If you recall, I brought this up to illustrate a point made by Jurassic that in basketball you can never change the judgement call of another official. I gave a ver specific example of an out of bounds call in the NCAA Tourney. I thought that the issue would die there, but a few of us can't seem to grasp the word play involved. Over-ruled/Changed/Corrected whatever you want to use...go ahead. The simple fact is that if an official makes a crucial error of judgement, we are seeing drastic changes in how they are handled. I back up all of my opinions with examples or fact. If this play was an aberation, IT STILL HAPPENED and they cannot dismiss that. In baseball we see a very real movement to get the call right. You have seen that my baseball knoweldge is as sharp as anyone here. I don't claim to have a wealth of basketball talent. I do however recognize that when people use the words never, always and without fail, that they are often in error. I am educated enough to be able to point these things out and attempt a reasonable discussion. I also know that a lot of rookie officials watch what transpires here and glean some of it. My purpose is to teach, share and correct any bad advice given here. I can be sarcastic and caustic, when the advie is horrible or the opinion arrogantly misplaced. However, I also contribute to the betterment of my brethren through the better share of my posts. Most know that when they see WindyCityBlue in the signature, there's something there that is logical and backed by fact and/or years of experience. You may not agree with me, but if you choose to argue, back it with a real situation and do it logically. I appreciate your candor and ask that you step back and look at the bigger picture. If I'm wrong (and I have posted mea culpas here) I will admit it. When it comes to this discussion, much to Jurassic's chagrin, I am happily gloating. You see ego is a very big part of the officiating recipe. We all smile when we leave teh field after we know the job was perfect. I'm leaving the field now, I backed up every call, and it's ear to ear, baby.

NCAA Basketball Rule 2-2-3- <i>"No official shall have the authority TO SET ASIDE or question decisions made by the other official(s) within the limits of their respective duties"</i>.

You seem to have a comprehension problem, Windy. A very big comprehension problem. You seem completely unable to comprehend written rules. The above basketball RULE simply states that one basketball official CANNOT overrrule another basketball official, no matter what any baseball umpire may try to claim.

No chagrin from me at all, Windy. If you wanna pretend that the rule cited above doesn't exist, hey, go ahead. To be quite honest, that's about what I expected from you anyway. You're completely out of your area of expertise, but you're still trying to bull**** your way through.

This is really sad.
 

With all due respect Windy, no one is disagreeing with what you saw, we are disagreeing of how the judgment was changed. That is all that is it. And in the game of basketball you can never change a judgment call for another official, PERIOD!!! And I would like to add, you do not know the conversation that was had between the officials or have a real sense of how these things are handled in the game of basketball. Out of bounds calls often are not something that the calling official can see, he needs help to make the proper call. Most of the time in situations like out of bounds call, the calling officials is asking for help.


I will continue to teach in the basketball arena, to never change a call, but to give information. And I will teach how to handle those situations and when to not give information. You can NEVER tell anyone to change a foul call, no ands, ifs and or buts about it.


I think Rookies can determine what is good or bad advice. Everyone here still has to go in front of their fellow umpires and officials and go along with what happens in their area. You cannot make everyone see things just your way. But you also gave a very bad example to use the basketball analogy. Many have told you that does not apply.


Windy that is no different than anyone here. I cannot say that most here do not want to provide information that is logical and correct. But we all do not have to agree on how things are handled. But to be so stubborn when you have multiple officials of multiple sports tell you that you are wrong, that also can mean something as well. And these are not rookies stating their case. These are posters that have been around here for some time and longer than you or I in some cases.


I do not know how much logical anyone can get by showing you the rulebook quote, word for word. You totally dismissed that and are telling folks that they do not know what to do in a sport you do not officiate. I really do not know who is using logic here?

Dude, this is not a competition. You were totally wrong on your debate with JR and you still have not admitted you have made a mistake. You continue to tell us you won a debate when the actual rules were given to dispute your point. I think it is just sad and that is why LDUB called you on it.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Jul 4th, 2004 at 06:38 PM]

I agree with Rut, damnit! :D

Jeff,
That was the most complete and logical interaction that you've shared with me (since some a-hole tried some race stuff and Yaworksi claimed that 80 year olds herald from the greatest generation atha ever lived.) Thank you.

The fundamental disagreement that we have is that I saw a play occur, saw the highlights of it pored over on network TV and heard the discussion about it. The rule might be very clear, but it apparently wasn't followed. The baseball rule book also states that the umpires will provide a resin bag for use. I have never had to do this in all of my years of baseball. Let us agree that things happen that may not be in accordance to the rule book. I never claimed to be a basketball guru. I did take issue with JR stating that once a judgement call has been made in basketball, it cannot be set aside like they are preaching in baseball. I like what I saw at Wrigley the other day (besides the victory). An umpire made a tough call, but had the sense to back down when his partners said that they saw something different. Reliford is an excellent arbiter, but he kicked it. The reason the umpires are backing down so much is because they don't want to be governed by instant replay. Imagine if every one of our calls was scrutinized on a 200 foot big screen!

As for LDUB, last week he advised a rookie that he would tell his team to lower their shoulders into defensive players who take up positions in the baseline. This is from an umpire and a Dad. I take his advice and criticism with a grain of salt. You know all too well that I call people on bad advice. You have read more than one of my posts that upholds the integrity of the game and informs others about how they can become better. I am glad to see that you recognize that I only take issue with things I can back up. No more basketball talk, back to baseball...

Uh no, JR NEVER said that. JR never said anything that was even close to that. JR said that one basketball official can NEVER OVERRULE another basketball official. JR said that there's a rule that backs that statement up too. JR then cited the rule verbatim. Don't try to change history on JR, Windy.

Any official in basketball that makes a judgement call can change that call HIMSELF if he thinks that he mighta screwed it up. He can also seek or get input from his partner(s) prior to making his decision. The calling official then is the only official that can make that change of his own call. No one else. And yes, it does happen fairly often because basketball officials wanna get the call right too.

That's what JR said, and that's what JR is still saying.

I do not take that as a complement at all. You have just been caught to be completely wrong. That was not the first time I said that about this issue, but you still want to hold on to your point of view. It is obvious you do not want to admit you are wrong, you just want to change the tone of the discussion to make it seem as if everyone changed their discussion.

Have a great 4th of July Windy. ;)

Peace

Except for NFL, which has the instant replay, the umpire, referee, official, making the call should be the only one to be able to "correct" the call, given feedback from his partners. There are rules to substantiate this, as have been mentioned here. However, our problem, and much debate, comes from having seen games, where it "appeared" that one official overruled another. I have definitely seen games in football, basketball, and basketball where it "appeared" than one official arrived on the scene a second or so after the call, and the call was changed. I will assume that the other official arrived with information he wanted to share, and having heard this information the calling official was convinced that the call needed to be changed, and he changed it. I have also seen cases where a second official arrived with information to share, and the call stood, most likely because the calling official was convinced of his ruling.

I have never been overruled by a partner, nor have I overruled a partner. I have both received and provided information which resulted in a change of call either by myself or by my partner. I have even changed calls based on what players tell me, if I believe them.

Except in the NFL, when video is used, the official gets an opportunity to change his call, and it's up to him to do so, or not.

Only certain NFL calls can be changed. You cannot change a fumble that was ruled down by contact. You cannot change penalty calls or even review them. There are many other situations that cannot be reviewed.

Peace

Okay, I'm going to end this once and for all...
Jurassic, Rut, you guys hold onto whatever you can regarding this issue. When the discussion firest began it concerned one official coming to another and telling him that he judged or ruled the call incorrectly. I used the term overrule - you say corrected and changed. Get over it...neither of you has ever worked as an official at the professional level. In Minor League baseball we have a crew chief who CAN and WILL overrule a call made by a member of that crew. I have been in both positions. I provided examples of calls that should be changed. I also gave you reasons why this should happen. Rut came back that no other sport allows this. I said that I saw it happen in basketball. Jurassic said, nope can't happen. I gave the exact play. You then said that I didn't hear the exchange. Doesn't matter...you didn't either. Then, you say that the calling official corrected the call, but again, I told you of the example where it didn't. You counter with, well it might have happened, but the crew shouldn't have. Good God, when have either of you worked the NCAA tournament? You gave an opinion, I countered it with a real world example, you dismiss it and then say I'm wrong. Don't quote a rule and twist semantics. The call was blown and the other ref made the reversal. The calling ref was never involved in changing the call. He ran up court when the other ref signalled the ball the other way. The could have punched each otherout after the game...I don't care...the call happened contrary to your belief.

By the way, find the section in the Official Rules of Major League baseball that allow for the crew to get together and change a judgement call.

Good night ladies.

The CCA Manual lists seven situations in which an umpire may offer unsolicited information to another umpire that made an incorrect call. One of those seven is a fair-foul call on a homerun ball.

I am uncertain whether the professional umpires follow the same mechanics in those seven situations. But I'll never work pro ball. I do, however, work NCAA ball, which causes me to follow the NCAA seven-situation mechanic at any level. So my advice is: offer your unsolicited information in those seven situations and let the calling umpire decide whether to correct his call or not.

Again, that's nothing but a complete and utter load of crap, Windy. You're 100% wrong- still. I didn't give an opinion at all, Windy. I cited the exact NCAA basketball rule that proved that the call couldn't have happened the way that YOUR opinion wanted it to. The RULE says that YOUR opinion is WRONG. Get over it. They say that it takes a big man to admit it when they're wrong. Do the math.

Bye-bye credibility, Windy. :D

You are right; I have not ever worked a single NCAA Tournament game at any level. I just attended a camp where D1 Officials runs the camp and worked a National Championship game in 1999, and he never once suggested doing what you "claim" you saw. But the last time I checked, you do not work basketball. But you keep referencing this play in the NCAA Tournament. We have guys that live right in our back yard, you could ask them. You do not have to take my word for it. You can ask guys that work D1 basketball and they will tell you for themselves what happen


Well, when I work a Major League baseball game, I will worry about those procedures. As a football and basketball official, we do not do many things the NFL or NBA teaches. As a matter of fact, we are told to not use them as an example at all. But you probably know that better than I would.

Never once in this discussion did I try to belittle you. I stuck to the facts and my side of the discussion. I can see that you have shown once again you lack class. Maybe this is why people feel the way they do about your organization. You sure are representing those guys really well with comments like that. ;)

Peace

Only certain NFL calls can be changed, that is correct. The ones that can be corrected are the ones "when video is used".

I know that. But there are so many plays that cannot ever be reviewed. Just like in either basketball or baseball, you cannot even give help or information so that anything can be changed.

I have never seen a ball or strike changed in baseball at any level.

You will never holding call made by one official, then the other official comes in and tells the calling officials he did not see it properly. Not without being fined or fired. I guess it could happen, but following improper procedure has been punished before in the NFL and the NBA.

Peace

This topic was pretty much talked out in an earlier post until Windy brought it up again just to needle a few posters.
Not what this forum is for.



Quite offensive IMO.
And BTW, Rut and JR are correct.

"Goodnight, ladies" Full Metal Jacket - watch it sometime
 

Originally posted June 30th by JurassicRef

Wow, you missed the point, WCB. DG was alluding to basketball officials over ruling each other. Well, that don't happen. Ever!

Except in the 2004 NCAA Tourney, at least once!

The official above changed his OWN call after listening to the information that was offered to him by another official.

No he didn't...watch the play, I have that game on tape, since the brother of a friend is on the team. The referree who made the OOB call(listen now) DID NOT CORRECT HIS CALL, one of his partners looked at him, indicated a touch by the other team and signalled the other way. The other referee NEVER DID A THING, except run up the side of the court to follow the inbounds.

That happens all the time. He was NOT over ruled by another official.

Okay, he telepathically convinced him that the play was incorrect. Then, he signalled the correct call and told his partner to remain quiet.

You can NEVER over rule another official in basketball- plain and simple. There's a very simple theory behind the explicit rule that I detailed in my first post. The basketball rulesmakers don't want their officials to try and assert their OWN judgement over another official's judgement.

Okay, so when the buzzer goes off and one official signals no shot, why do they huddle at the TV to see how much time is acually left? Just to see how good they look? OR...could it be that they recognize that JUST LIKE BASEBALL, HOCKEY, TENNIS and FOOTBALL, professional officials can make mistakes and they will provide them with the remedy for fixing them? Hmmm

I have never said that every call can and should be scrutinized and if wrong, corrected. I have never said that one official should usurp the other's authority and impose his will. You have put words in my mouth, but didn't like it when I reciprocated. Your difficulty with this is the word NEVER. Wake up...it happened. Other sports are evolving and allowing officials to rectify improper judgements. How long before the rule books are altered? Rut said that he didn't care what the Official rules state because he won't work MLB, but a whole lot of baseball is governed by those same rules. I also recognize that when the pros are doing something that has a positive effect on the game, I should adopt that mindset. My ego does not prevent me from adopting better techniqus that may seem foreign. It also doesn't allow me to hide behind arcane rules and semantics. I have given two exact plays that challenged the theroies presented for discussion. Both are real and not subject to dismissal. The two JR's (Rut and 'rassic) have never wworked any of their sports at a D1 level or beyond. Yet they are a fountain of knowledge about how we should conduct ourselves. I will take solace in the fact that when our Minor League Director of Umpiring calls on us to live up to those standards, we can say we are aware and already are.

Hypocrite
 

Did you really post this and then come to my post and start in again...

I know I have been in some battles over the years. Some I started others just happen without much participation on my part at all. I think we need to refrain from the constant bickering and constant name calling. We are here to learn from each other in one way or another. Some of us have great experience at the top levels. Others are just getting started. I think those of us that have been around a lot longer, need to be more mindful of those that do not know any better yet.

If that is how you truly feel, as someone who tries to teach those with less experience, lesson 1 begins now...

Don't ever put things in writing that can be used against you later. My post pointed out a play that ha a direct correlation to a discussion here. You started in with the derogatory remarks. Who's the hypocrite?

I alluded, because it certainly appears to the viewer (television and in person), that it happens in NCAA. I will take your word for it, that it never happens, and wonder what the heck I have been seeing. Obviously, some telephathic communication going on between officials.

Windy, you can post your same crap for the next 3 months if you want. After every one of your posts, I am still just gonna tell you the same thing again. You are wrong! There is a very specific basketball rule, cited several times already, that proves that you are wrong! You do not have anything that will back up any of your allegations, and you NEVER will have anything. You have ZERO credibility on this issue. Quite frankly, I have my doubts that you really possess the umpiring credentials that you are trying to claim too. I don't think that any official who was supposedly working at that level would ever act as unprofessionally as you have been doing, or would lack the common sense to even stop for a second and try to understand a simple rule citation from another sport. Feel free to continue with the name-calling and putdowns though. I must admit that you are quite proficient in those areas.

Re: Hypocrite
 

Rut's a hypocrite? Rut started in with the derogatory remarks? Hmmmmmmm!

Rut posted the above on July 4th at 3:17am. Please take a look at the contents of the thread that I linked below, Windy:

http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...3&pagenumber=1

Your first flame directed at Rut was contained in your post on June 28th at 10:25pm. Many more flames directed by you at Rut followed after that- all before July 4th. Do you want me to take the time to dig them all out for you? On June 30th, your post at 5:13pm directed at myself called me an "a$$" and referred to me as "feable(sic) minded".

And you're trying to claim that Rut started the derogatory remarks? That's kinda laughable to anyone that can read and think, Windy.

ByeBye, credibility- again! You just keep digging yourself in deeper and deeper.

Let us stick to the topic at hand.
 

I am not going to address the personal stuff.

If you do not believe me, ask this question at the Basketball Board. If you do not think what JR or I are saying, ask other officials that know. You will not find a bunch of D1 Tournament Officials, but you will find officials that have worked many different levels. But I did not realize I need to be a D1 Official to intelligently know about procedures that are used. I have actually attended NCAA Meetings that have been held by the NCAA and listened to the Official Directors talk about plays and situations we face. I am sorry that this year will only be my 9th year, but I have worked a few years of NCAA Basketball as well and read the very same book that everyone can reference. But also remember, you have not worked a Major League game, but I am not questioning your position based on your lack of MLB experience.

Peace

TV can be rather deceiving.
 

I think you are missing the point. I understand what things might look like. If you listen to the commentators, that is your first mistake. But all an official can do is give information. Then based on that information, the calling officials can change that call or just go with what they saw. And on an out of bounds call, it is very common for that to happen. That is not overruling, that is giving information. As a matter of fact, the "helping" official cannot signal or change the call in any way. If the "calling" official needs help, they might make eye contact and not signal anything. Then the "helping" official will make a signal to let them know which way the ball will go, then the calling officials usually blows their whistle and signals they proper direction.

This is a very common practice (speaking of the mechanic). But it is also very rare happening. I might go an entire season and not have one of these type of plays changed.

I am not saying that officials do not use improper mechanics or procedures, but they can and will get fined or suspended (possibly fired) if they use the wrong procedure. Every D1 NCAA game is reviewed by tape and has every call evaluated. If there was an improper procedure used, the officials would likely not advance in the NCAA Tournament in which this play described took place. There was a double T given out in a Texas game in the NCAA Tournament. The very well known official did not use a commonly used procedure and gave both Ts to Coach Rick Barnes, and the officials that gave both Ts did not work again in this year’s tournament after the incident.

So maybe it happen just like you said it did, but tells me what games those officials worked after that play?

Peace

Re: TV can be rather deceiving.
 

I don't know what point I am missing. You, and others, are telling me that something I see is not happening. Like I said, I will take your word that some telephathic/eye contact thing is going on that I can not see as a spectator. And I have no information on what happens when a screwup occurs. I'm just calling 'em like I see 'em.

Re: Re: TV can be rather deceiving.
 

I am not telling you anything you saw. All I am doing is explaining what you saw and what I have experienced. Any official that has worked basketball more than a year knows this. But I also find it interesting that you have not told us the conversation that was had to tell us exactly what was said between officials and the procedures that are commonly practiced.

Ask this question on the Basketball Boards. Do not at all take my word for it. Tell all the other experienced officials over there what they do not know. I will stay completely out of the discussion and let everyone else share their point of view. Make sure you describe the play in detail, because I am sure someone saw the game over there. We tend to watch a lot of NCAA games and discuss all kind of plays. I am sure someone saw the play and can tell you the officials that were involved.

So if you baseball only umpires know better than us, ask folks that only work basketball and see what they think.

Peace

I don't know if this is true, but it is something that I have noticed.

In the Cubs game a few days back, there was a homerun call that was changed. The person who gave the signal that the call was being changed was the PU. He is the UIC of the game and he runs the game. The "head official" of the game is the one who announced that the call was changed.

In the NFL, instant replay is used to change calls. It is the referee who announces weather the call will be upheld or not. Once again, it is the "head official" who announces the change.

In the NCAA game that WCB described, he said that the non-calling official was the one who signaled that the call was being changed. Well mabye the official who made the original call was the umpire, and the one who signaled the change was the Referee. Once again, the "head official" signaled the change.

I don't know all of this is a just a coincidence, but if it is not, then it might settle the argument about WCB's NCAA situtaion.

It does not.
 

OK. No disagreement there.

Well the "Head Officials" is the Referee in football. The Referee is the person that tells everyone what the rulings are on the field. But that does not mean they make the decision. I am the Referee on my crew and all I do is report what my partner's do. I do not tell them to pick up their flags or change their calls. We all might discuss a play and a situation, but I surely have no authority to tell a partner to not call something or what they called was wrong. All I do is make sure we apply the rule properly after all is said and done. But we have a common saying in football. "If you do not know how to apply it, do not call it." It is not my job to fix partner's mistakes. I just have to understand what they called and when it happens. So I can explain the enforcement to captains and coaches if need be.

Well if you listen to me, the Referee has not real special authority. All the Referee does is run the pregame meeting and throw up the jump ball and hand the ball off between halves or quarters if you are working a HS game. The Referee cannot change foul calls or tell partner's what they called is wrong. I have NEVER seen a foul called changed. If you blew that whistle, you live with it. I have NEVER SEEN a travel call changed. If you call it, you live with it. No matter how erroneous the call is. I might help an officials know if a basket went in during a foul, but the calling officials has to decide if the basket counted. They know what they call, not the just the Referee.

It does not.

Peace

Re: It does not.
 

That is exactly my point. It is the head official who announces things to everyone. I'm not saying that you are telling them to change their calls. But in the NFL it is different. It is the Referee who goes to the replay booth and reviews the play. He is the one who makes the call on if the play should be overturned.


I am not saying that the Referee is changing calls. All I said is that he is making a signal. I don't understand how WCB has any arguement at all unless he was able to hear what was said in the coversation between the two officials. Just because one of them made the signal does not mean he ran up saying you are wrong, and pointed the other way.

Re: Re: It does not.
 

Actually, the Referee makes the decision with the consultation of a former official in the booth. That is what their headset is for.

What I am saying to you is. Who the Referee is or who is not the Referee has nothing to do with that procedure. The two Umpires could have been involved in the play and the Referee would not signal anything. I do not see the play in question, but I know the procedure. Who is the Referee has nothing to do with that procedure. Only the two officials that are involved are going to be signaling anything.

Peace

WCB has said a lot of things in this thread and the last thread that were nothing but guesses and maybes. Well, guesses and maybes can never supersede a rule. That's why WCB is wrong. The rule that I cited already also has other sections that take care of the argument above:

NCAA basketball rule 2-2-4- <i>"One official may ASSIST another by providing additional information related to a MADE decision"</i>.

NCAA basketball rule 2-2-5- <i>"The referee's decision shall NOT take precedence over that of the umpire(s) in calling a foul or violation".</i>.

The referee is always the crew chief, or head official. An out-of-bounds call is a violation. Put the rules above together with the one that I already cited and you get the procedure that HAS to be followed and WAS followed:--i.e.- An official makes an out-of-bounds call. Another official comes in to provide additional information on that call. The official that made the call then may or may not change that call, dependant on what he- AND HE ONLY- wants to do. No other official, including the referee, has the right to overrule that calling official, or make that calling official change his original call. Whether the calling official or another official gave the final signal or not has got absolutely nothing to do with the procedures outlined in the rules cited. It doesn't matter because the rules have already been laid down as to the procedure that must be followed to reach that final decision.

The RULES say that one official can NEVER OVERRULE another official. That's not me saying that, or Rut saying that. It's THE RULES that are saying that!!!!!! It's that simple, whether WCB wants to believe those written NCAA rules or not. To be quite honest, for someone- anyone- to argue their own personal suppositions over plainly written rules is ludicrous.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jul 6th, 2004 at 04:48 AM]

WCB has said a lot of things in this thread and the last thread that were nothing but guesses and maybes. Well, guesses and maybes can never supersede a rule. That's why WCB is wrong. The rule that I cited already also has other sections that take care of the argument above:

I guess that maybe you can't read. You never saw the play, I did. EXACTLY what I wrote happened. Live with it, a play happened (at least once) that you can't explain, with your vast NCAA experience and all.

NCAA basketball rule 2-2-4- <i>"One official may ASSIST another by providing additional information related to a MADE decision"</i>.

I'm sure he did, in the locker room, after the game. They made eye contact and the other ref immediately signalled to the other ref that the ball should go the other way. Then he signalled to the rest what the call is. The other ref never said a word or made a signal.

NCAA basketball rule 2-2-5- <i>"The referee's decision shall NOT take precedence over that of the umpire(s) in calling a foul or violation".</i>.

No foul...just an out of bounds call. Hmmm, I thought that was clear. Maybe, I wasn't clear and you had to guess what play I was describing.

The RULES say that one official can NEVER OVERRULE another official. That's not me saying that, or Rut saying that. It's THE RULES that are saying that!!!!!! It's that simple, whether WCB wants to believe those written NCAA rules or not. To be quite honest, for someone- anyone- to argue their own personal suppositions over plainly written rules is ludicrous.

Yeah, how many resin bags have you provided to a baseball game? Yet, there it is in the rule book. Oh, I guess that we are only talking about the rules that you want. Sorry, I thought that when you make a statement, you could, maybe, back it up. Rules and laws are very grey areas, they get twisted and aberrations happen all of the time. Not that you'd notice, since according to you, if it is not in the book, it can't happen.

BTW how much D1 basketball experience do you have. That is very easy to verify.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jul 6th, 2004 at 04:48 AM] [/B][/QUOTE]

So you are telling me, that this entire discussion is based on whether or not someone worked D1 basketball? So it is impossible to comment on D1 Basketball, because we have not done it?

This is just another example of you lack of knowledge of basketball rules and procedures.

Peace

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

Quote:

[i]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee NCAA basketball rule 2-2-4- <i>"One official may ASSIST another by providing additional information related to a MADE decision"</i>. I'm sure he did, in the locker room, after the game. <font color = red>They made eye contact and the other ref immediately signalled to the other ref that the ball should go the other way. Then he signalled to the rest what the call is. The other ref never said a word or made a signal.</font>

Gee, is that right Windy? They made eye contact only and the other ref never said a word? Instead of trying to argue the inarguable, maybe you should spend some of your time trying to find the person who made the following posts in your name- Windy City Blue. That person is really making you look bad, Windy. He completely contradicted your statement above:
1)Posted by Windy City Blue at 2:44pm on June 30th- <i>"When one official makes a bad call and another official CONFERS with him(MAYBE IT JUST TAKES THREE SECONDS, MAYBE LONGER) to contradict the call, and it is changed. It has been OVERRULED. A ruling was made and it was turned over. OVERRULED."</i>
2) Posted by Windy City Blue at 10:06am on June 30th- <i>"The crowd went crazy and one of the other officials hustled in AND MUST HAVE CONVINCED HIM that it was deflected- the correct call"</i>
3) Posted by Windy City Blue at 4:13pm on June 30th- <i>"One of the referees ran over, THEY CONFERRED FOR ABOUT 10 SECONDS and the referee WHO CAME IN WITH THE HELP signalled the other way".</i>

Here's the link again, Windy. Check your OWN words out.

http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...3&pagenumber=1

Again, note that YOU plainly posted above that the call was OVERRULED. Well, NCAA rules won't allow that. Feel free to keep arguing differently though. How many different ways can you say the same thing- that the NCAA rules are wrong and Windy City Blue is right?

ByeBye credibility, Windy! :D

CCA manual?
 

What is the CCA manual and where can I get it? Specifically the 7 situations. It sounds like this would be a good training tool to teach younger officials with.

Re: It does not.
 

You must have the luxury of working with top notch football officials that don't make mistakes. In my area we don't have this. "White Hats" pick up rookies and train them to "standard". What ends up happening is that after a foul, when the crew is discussing, that sometimes calls are overturned. 2 reasons to overturn a call in our association: 1)the calling official "thought he saw" - if you "thought" you saw it, you didn't see it. 2) another official had a better view of the foul. I have primarily seen this type of call with a block in the back or a pass interference. The philosophy behind this mechanic is GET THE CALL RIGHT, even if you have to wave off a flag.

Re: CCA manual?
 

Not being a baseball umpire, I was waiting for someone else to answer this. However, here goes:
http://gerrydavis.com/Merchant2/grap...0001/cca04.jpg

Available at:
http://www.gerrydavis.com
And probably many other sources too. These manuals are available for most NCAA sports.

Get it right my left.......................
 

I disagree. And my disagreement has nothing to do with how good the officials I work with. We have a policy on our crew to not question judgment calls, especially based on what we "think" happen. If any information is going to be given, you BETTER KNOW WHAT HAPPEN! You better know the ball was tipped. You better know the ball was loose. You better know we are applying this penalty wrong. Not a guess, ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE. Same goes for any sport I have worked.

Peace

Re: Get it right my left.......................
 

So we are in agreement on case #1 - if you aren't sure it happened it didn't happen. This mistake is directly related to the experience of the official.

How would you handle this? Official #1 rules that basketball is tipped out of bounds by white. Official #2 who had a different angle, comes in and states that he is absolutely positive that blue tipped the ball last.

Re: Re: Get it right my left.......................
 

Then we are going to change the call. And this situation is discussed in every single pregame I have. But, that is not being overruled. That is being given information to help me make the proper call. But if I was all over the play as Official #1 and I saw the play, I am sticking with my original call. Because #2 has different angle, does not mean he had a better angle or a better look at how the ball got out of bounds.

Being overruled means that one official saw something and makes a call regardless of what the original officials saw or what their coverage area is as well. That is not OVERRULING another official. That is helping an official. The calling officials can reject that information if they choose to. A Supreme Court Judge can overrule a decision that is made by an Appellate Court Judge's decision. Officials cannot just make a decision without the approval of the calling official. So I really do not see how someone is being overruled when calling officials can stick with their own call. If a BU Umpire feels he made the right call, no one can make him change it. The same in all sports I work. Again, if you do not believe me, ask this very question on the Basketball Board and use the language of OVERRULE and see what reaction you will get. ;)

Peace

No...
 

Crew chiefs in D1 and Minor League baseball carry a little more authority. I have had calls changed and I've changed calls as crew chief - all of them have been after conferring with my partners, because baseball allows this. A couple of times I have had to prevent fights from breaking out in our locker room after the game, but on the field, we did our jobs. Sometimes our "conferences" were a signal - ala pulled foot, bobbled ball, "Safe" for no catch, double set for a balk, etc. I've worked with some of my partners for fourteen years and often don't need words to show what we want or will do. Work with a crew long enough and this happens. I do not suggest it to rookies or inexperienced crews. But does it happen, you bet. Did you ever see Joe Brinkman call a check swing without taking his hands out of his pockets? He did it in a playoff game two years ago.

Tensions are obviously high about this issue.
Jeff, in order to end this, I will agree that changing/overruling/altering a baseball call/ruling is a difficult decision and should be done only when warranted and then, properly. My intent was to show that the steps taken by our professional brethren is for the good of the game. We owe it to the players, coaches & fans to make sure that the game is called fairly and correctly. Adopting this practice ON THE BASEBALL FIELD is sure to come. FED already said that they want any incorrect call that is made that puts a team in jeopardy should be corrected. Then they come back and say that even if you call a fair ball "Foul", it is foul. We know that they did this to protect a call made in error, that would be difficult to change.

Jurassic,
You didn't have to tell us that you weren't a baseball umpire..it was obvious. The only mistake I made was trying to convince you that when you say something can't possibly happen, someone is going to give you a REAL example of it occuring. I did, you can't believe it...oh, well. Working at the D1 level in any sport is an accomplishment. You complained about me posting my credentials to back an opinion, sorry, but jealousy becomes you. I had no intent to make enemies of you when this first began, but you broke the cardinal rule of officiating. "Don't take anything personally." You did, I gloated and you've been sneering ever since. You'd better be careful or your face will stay that way. Uh, oh...too late.

I hate the way this thread went into a pissing match... anyway ---

This call, and last year's, are perfect examples of why I believe it should be the 1st base umpire calling home runs near the left field foul pole, and 3BU calling them near the RF pole. They have a MUCH MUCH MUCH better view than either the PU or the BU on the same side. I'd be fine with 2BU getting all homers as well, for simplicity sake.

Nothing changes or has changed, Windy. You still have absolutely nothing to support your little fantasy. Trying to change your story line didn't work either, did it? Having a hard time remembering what you posted a few days ago? You ended up looking pretty foolish on that one, didn't ya? Contradicting your own posts sure made some amusing reading. :D

Your whole act is comprised of just the same old/same old name-calling, belittling people and trying to convince people that you really are a D1 umpire and that makes you right. Well, Windy, I don't believe that for a minute. D1 officials usually have at least a little bit of class, and also usually have some respect for their fellow officials.

Maybe someday you can explain to me too why being a D-1 baseball umpire can also make you such an expert on NCAA basketball rules.And maybe you can also explain why you're so sure that I've never refereed at the D1 level- not that it matters one bit what my credentials, or anybody's credentials for that matter, are anyway. You're proof of that, Windy, if you are a D1 umpire. Your resume sure didn't make you right, did it? :D

The bottom line is that you're still wrong, Windy. You have no credibility left after a week of this crap,and you are still as completely wrong as you were when you started. If being wrong is a reason for gloating, hey, feel free. And as for us being enemies? Nah! I could care less about you, Windy. Nothing that you say or call me bothers me even a little bit. Sorry about that.