Hello. I have been coaching little league for 10 years and umpiring for some 5 years and something came up last night that affected the outcome of the game. In our first playoff game (I was coaching) at the 9-10 level our pitcher hit 4 kids over 3 innings. The umpire then told me (keep in mind no warnings where ever given to coaches or pitcher) that the pitcher needed to be removed from the mound and replaced with another pitcher.
He explained to the coaches that it was a rule in the little league rule book that after 4 hit batters the pitcher MUST be pulled out of game. We couldn't find that rule in the book after studying it last night!
I have never heard of this but can tell you I have coached and umpired many a game where many more then 4 players have been hit. Keep in mind this was a 9 year old and control is only so good. Is this in fact a rule? Should warnings have been given? I could see his point if he said it was at his discretion that it would be safest to remove the pitcher, but he insisted it was in the rule book. We did appeal as this was a playoff game and our second best pitcher was throwing. We were winning 6-3 at the time and were forced to bring in our third best pitcher who didn't fare so well. The game was called after six innings tied 11-11. As this is a hot topic and the timing is important could you PLEASE get back to me ASAP .
I not only coach but umpire many games including playoffs and would like to know the facts. I have the latest rule book from little league and am not able to find anything at all on this subject. I also browsed the net this morning and found nothing on the rule. If by chance it matters 3 of the kids hit leaned into the ball and the fourth never even attempted to move, letting the ball hit him. Fortunately, nobody was hurt....
These are 9-10 year olds who are not yet proficient in hitting or pitching, but they (and the coaches) feel slighted by the umpires decision.

Thanks, Web Wadja

I think you should be discussing this with the League before you complete the game. I have worked with a lot of officials that quote things they think are in the rule book. It is either there or not. The league may have something to cover this. I know when I coached we had a similar rule.

Check with them.

In our league, it states 3 in our little list of differences with OBR.

HOWEVER, if the kids leaned in or did not move, there is no HBP. That is purely umpire judgment, but I would have 0 or maybe 1 hit batter.

I do not familiar with your leagues provisions for hit batters, but I would call the league president or UIC.

It is NOT in the Little League rule book.

Oh come on, the "No Hit the Batter" rule is right there with the "Hands are part of the Bat rule" on page 265 of any rule book!

Rich, I don't know if you are talking to me or not, but I will reply none the less. I did not say it was in the little league rule book. Our league has a list of special rules for our town. 3 batters hit, must slide (I found out last night it is must SLIDE, not avoid contact....that is stupid), 5 innings, each player must play 2 innings, etc.

I was responding to:

"He explained to the coaches that it was a rule in the little league rule book "

Which was in the first post

Assuming you're talking Little League, that's not a local rule, that's in the 2004 LL rule book...

7.08(a)(3) Any runner is out when - the runner does not slide or attempt to get around a fielder who has the ball and is waiting to make the tag;

It sounds like the intention is to avoid collisions and the resulting injuries.

i think the umpire just wanted a pitcher out there that could find the plate. cuz i have never seen an umpire in little league (which is one of the three leagues that i call) call for a change of a pitcher after he has hit four batters. unless it is a rule for your area the umpire is not correct in the ruling. The little league rule book is the most disorganized garble of a rule book that i have seen. he must of been using rule 9.02(i think is the rule number my rule book is in my car), where it states that any rule not specifically covered is left to the discretion of the umpire.. but if he did that then he is abusing his authority on the field because that is a stupid use of the rule.

akalsey, no, I mean must slide. I have always called must avoid contact. Last night I was called on it. In our list of rules, it says must slide. I had an umpire working for me the other day who called an out when the pitcher had the ball and kid coming home did not slide. It is in the rule book......

Around here we interpret it to must slide to avoid contact. but if contact is made there is no penalty as long as he is sliding. however we do call the penalty for sliding head first.

"The little league rule book is the most disorganized garble of a rule book that i have seen."


It's pretty much the same as the Official Basrball Rules so don't blame it on LL.

Then you are interpreting the Little League rule incorrectly. The requirement is for the runner to slide OR attempt to get around a fielder who is in possession of the ball and waiting to make a tag. The intent of the rule is to outlaw crashing a fielder with the intent to knock the ball loose. It is not a no-contact rule.

We heard from the Little League commission of PA yesterday and the confirmed that it is not a rule. Our local bball commission president and a few members alos said he was wrong in removing the pitcher, so we will follow through with the protest if we lose tonight's extra innings continuation. I'll keep you posted...

FYI, the umpire stated specifically that it was in the rule book and did not say that removing the pitcher "was at his discretion". That is the basis for our protest.

Web

WW,

Did you file a protest with the umpire before he left the field of play the night of the game? Was it recorded in the scorebook? Did you follow it up with a written protest within 24 hours?

If you did follow the prescribed steps, why wouldn't the game be restarted from the point the pitcher was removed, instead of playing it out, THEN choosing to continue the protest? What's the BoDs thinking?

The hands are not part of the Bat, at least in our league.

First of all the rules state "must slide OR avoid contact".

You will probably NEVER see a "must slide rule" by any legitimate organized league because if little Johnny slides and hurts hisself, than little Johnny's parents are going to sue your butt for his injuries.

Look at these last two posts... We need to stop hijacking posts. This post is about HBP in LL (9-10).

Is this another one of those self imposed umpire's ruling?????

"He explained to the coaches that it was a rule in the little league rule book that after 4 hit batters the pitcher MUST be pulled out of game. We couldn't find that rule in the book after studying it last night!"

He must have printed his own LL rule book. And you couldn't find that 'rule', because it doesn't exist.

Several of the umpires in our league cover this issue in ground rules. They state that while it is not in the rules, it is within their discretion as an umpire to request that a pitcher be replaced after hitting 3 batters. A warning is given after each hit batter. I have never seen a coach complain since the ground rules are understood up front and plenty of warning is given.

Excuse me!

"within their discretion as an umpire".

I got to try this one. Im gonna start discretioning 5 inning games. Yea I like that!

Where is this League? I got some land in florida these coaches may be interested in also.

After one of my pitchers hit two batters in two pitches (accidentally -- these are 8 year olds) an ump informed me that if he hit another batter, I would have to remove the pitcher for safety reasons.

I'm on the fence on that one. As an ump and parent, I understand wanting to enforce safety. As a coach, I didn't like it since he's my best pitcher. He'd struk out four straight batters in 19 pitches before that. He just had two pitches get away from him and hit consecutive batters.

It ended up working okay in the end since he didn't hit anyone else, but I'm wondering from a rules perspective, what's the opinion of this group about an ump taking that sort of action?

OOO. Protest. Challenge the umpire on this.

9.01
(c) Each umpire has authority to rule on any point not specifically covered in these rules.

Sorry, you can't shorten the game since that is covered in the rules.

Unless the League hires you to be Umpire, Coach, Director, father, mother and the great Soothsayer of Baseball, mind your own dang business and stick to the rules your are paid to officiate by.

If you don't know what the rule is , by god ask the local people. But for heavean sake quit making it up.

Your joking right. I would be laughed off the field if I used that in the games I do.

I doth believe your wrong.

And does'nt the rules specifically say whe a batter is hie by a pitch , he is to be awarded first base.

[Edited by jicecone on Jun 11th, 2004 at 01:22 PM]

Playing devil's advocate regarding the application of 9.01(c)...

There are rules governing removing pitchers as well as governing what happens when someone gets hit by a pitch. Just like I can't decide that the pitch hit the batter REALLY hard so I'm awarding him second, I can't decide that the penalty for a pitcher hitting a batter is removal from the mound.

OK:
1. It's NOT in the Book; there simply is no such rule.
2. "Local Rules" be damned: the Babe Ruth and LL books both contain rules which clearly state that there is no authority for "local" changes in the playing rules without approval from the National Office. Therefore, the [regrettably common] insanities of "must slide" local rules are NOT PERMITTED. Next time some yokel "calls you" on one of these "local rules" that contradicts the published Official Rules, ask to see the letter from the National Office approving it.

Now, all that said, I have been in a similar situation; and there is a way, if you absolutely MUST, for safety, get that kid off the mound. Usually, this happens when a team has only one real pitcher, and (s)he is being "saved" for the money game - the kid on the mound is a danger to himself & others, and is beaning folk right and left.

This is Tournament, right? And, perhaps a "select" All-Star team? Which means that the kids SHOULD be good enough to do their jobs: which also SUGGESTS that the beanings MIGHT be intentional. This is a judgment call, obviously. While you are pondering your judgment, consider that it is hardly in the team's interest to be giving free passes by boinking batters accidentally, and the fact that the Coach isn't pulling his pitcher who seems to be consistently doing this also SUGGESTS intentionality, and by the way, that he is doing this at the direction of his Coach.

There is a book response for a pitcher who intentionally hits batters, or even throws AT them, right? And for his Coach who is instructing him to do so?

So, you might want to consider discussing these troublingthoughts with Bonko's Coach along these lines:

U: Gee, Coach, that's the 10th hit batter in the last two innings; I'm starting to worry that maybe this is intentional.

C: Hell, no, Blue, he's just wild tonite.

U: Well Coach, I can't just take your word for it, you know. I obviously don't want to eject anybody, and I've been giving y'all the benefit of the doubt so far. It's entirely up to you of course, but I hope you'll think about replacing that pitcher. Next guy he hits may convince me that it's on purpose, and I'll have no choice but to act then.

C: You can't do that!!!

U: Well, it is a JUDGMENT CALL, I'll just have to use my best judgment. I'm just asking you to use yours. OK, let's play ball.

OK, it's a long post. The solution, if you ABSOLUTELY MUST poke in, is to treat the HBP as an intentional beaning: don't "remove" the pitcher from the mound, eject him from the game. That IS in the rule book, and you'll "win" every protest - use the magic words, "In My Judgment".

But: "Local Rules require that the pitcher be lifted after 4 HBP"? B#!!&#!%%

Local leagues are going to add whatever extra rules they like and there is no need grumbling about it. Learn what they are and play by them. No big deal. Classic exmpale is time limits. Many have them, especially in the younger age groups. You can't go to the plate meeting and say "we are not going to use that local rule because it is not endorsed by the home office".

If you are going to go to the coach and say that you are going to render a judgement that the pitcher is throwing intentionally at the batter you may as well tell him if he stays in he is going to walk every batter. If the league has a "hit four batters rule" then remove him when he hits four batters. Everyody on both sides will know the local rule and nobody will argue about it, and parents for batting team will be extremely happy with your solid knowledge and enforecment of the local rules.

DG,

How about calling outs for throwing bat? Or out if they don't slide at home? Or maybe the plate is in foul territory?(there's LOTS of folks that believe that one.)

Nope, when I work different leagues, I use the rules setforth by Williamsport, and add local rules. If they clash, I'll stick with Williamsports version, and write a really neat protest report if needed. Hard to go wrong that way.

And 9.01(c)is a rookie crutch. I tried to go that route when I was green too.

Quoth DG:
Local leagues are going to add whatever extra rules they like and there is no need grumbling about it. Learn what they are and play by them. No big deal. Classic exmpale is time limits. Many have them, especially in the younger age groups. You can't go to the plate meeting and say "we are not going to use that local rule because it is not endorsed by the home office".

Quoth me:

DG: read my post again: "local rules" can't vary PLAYING RULES - timelimit rules A.) aren't playing rules B.) don't conflict with any playing rules C.) are actually allowed by some of the National rule books (or at least provided for in the Book)

Next, as for the plate meeting, if some coach brings up one of these boogers at the plate meeting [never happened to me, but there is always a 1st time], I'll do exactly what I advocated: ask to see the letter from National. If he doesn't have one [he won't], or in the usual case, where it don't come up 'till it happens on the field, I ump by the published book.

Now, as to "you might as well say you are going to walk all the batters" - DG, there is a difference, and you seem knowledgeable enough to recognise it. If [halleleujah!] Bonko throws a BB belt high over the middle & I "Ball" it, I may be sending a message, but "judgment" has nothing to do with it. If, on the otherhand, I determine that the 11th hit batter was NOT a mistake & toss the offender(s), esp. after I have had a discussion with Coach about it, that IS judgment, and the only valid beef with me is that I didn't "recognise" what was going on when the 2nd thru 10th HBP happened.

Lastly, as to "local leagues are going to add whatever they want" - WHERE IS THE UIC? Local leagues only do garbage like this when their UIC is A> clueless, or B> spineless.

And: PS {yea, I just said "lastly"] - I only said do this if you ABSOLUTELY MUST poke in - in 9-10 ball, the kids who are seriously wild seldom throw hard enough to hurt anyone; and if Bonko's coach is stupid enough to put the whole batting order on w/ beaners, it's his funeral, and fewer pitches on average than if Bonko walks 'em in the usual manner. I'm good with it. My point is that we can get to where we have to be within the published rules, and this nonsense of "must slide", etc. is a waste of time.

Playing a time limit is adding a rule. Having a rule that requires a pitcher to be removed when he hits x batters is adding a rule. Neither of these examples is varying the existing rules.

And I have seen a player in 9-10 get hit in the nose and the blood went off like a geyser. When I used to coach 9-10 I once had a 10 year that could throw 65 MPH. Had it on radar gun. So if the league wants to add a rule that gets rid of a wild pitcher without me having to work it out with the coach, then I'm all for it, in the interest of safety.