In a Babe Ruth game I saw this play last night that i was watching but not working. with less than two outs R1 on first base is forced to go to second by batter/runner. R1 overslides second base purposely breaking up the double play and taking the fielder out. the base umpire did not see this because the bag had already been tagged and he was moving into position to view a throw to first for the double play. he realizes the ball was not thrown and the two players are laying on the ground. if he did not see the play at second can the plate guy make a call on it? or does the base guy have to appeal his call at second for a double play interference on the runner to the plate guy since he could not see the interference?

I can see already that a lot of what happened, was do to inexperieced officials.

First mistake. No baseball, no play. Had the BU followed the ball, which in this case meant watching the fielder release the ball to first, which did not happen, he would have seen the collision and been able to rule on the interference at second.

Second, todays mechanics are to have the PU come out from behind the plate, I repeat, for those that never move, COME OUT FROM BEHIND THE PLATE. Watch the action at second base and then rule accordingly if any interference takes place. It is the responsibilty of BOTH officials to make this happen. I worked with a partner that came alomost to the mound and assisted verbally by saying that "it was clear at second." Teamwork.

This is how it should happen.

<i> Originally posted by ecurebel

In a Babe Ruth game I saw this play last night that i was watching but not working. with less than two outs R1 on first base is forced to go to second by batter/runner. R1 overslides second base purposely breaking up the double play and taking the fielder out. the base umpire did not see this because the bag had already been tagged and he was moving into position to view a throw to first for the double play. he realizes the ball was not thrown and the two players are laying on the ground. if he did not see the play at second can the plate guy make a call on it? or does the base guy have to appeal his call at second for a double play interference on the runner to the plate guy since he could not see the interference? </i>

There's a couple of things going on here before I get to the mechanics.

I think Babe Ruth plays by OBR rules. If that's the case then R1 would have to do something Willfully and deliberately with Obvious intent to break up DP. Also in OBR as long as the bag is within reach by the players hand, the slides Ok.

Therefore, in an OBR game we only have one out.

In FED, they have what is called a Force Play Play slide rule and also define what types of slides are legal vs. illegal. over-sliding a base and making contact with a fielder is an illegal slide in FED.

Now to the mechanic:

In a 2 Person System it is the plate person's responsibility to watch for the interference at second base, because the BU will turn to make the call at first base as soon as F4/F6 releases the ball.

Pete Booth

see i am only a second year official and i know this. the umpire in question is a decent umpire, just forgot the basic mechanic of following the ball on the play. the plate guy didn't move out from behind the plate and didn't come up and say anything about the play.

i know to follow the play and watch for something like that because that happened to me in a high school game in which i called the out and then the interference because the player intentionally took out the second baseman.

Actually, it is the Plate umpire's job to make that Interference call !

With only a runner on 1st, his job is to watch the continuing play at 2nd base for just such an occurance.

The Base umpire's job is to watch the ball and call the plays at 2nd and then 1st.

Remember, two sets of eyes does not mean 4 eyes watching the same thing. We each have a specific job to do for each situation.

Your absolutely right Nick however,as stated above,"he realizes the ball was not thrown and the two players are laying on the ground." The ball never left second base.

Sounds like a good slide to me.

No interference.

R1 out. BR safe.

You are kidding, right? A runner overslides 2B intentionally to contact a fielder on the other side of the base to break up a DP and this is not interference?

Can he reach the base with a hand or foot? This is NOT a FED or NCAA game, after all.

the point of the post is that r1 DELIBERATELY took out the fielder, and the play was not seen by the base umpire.. yet it should have been called by the plate guy

It's hard to say without seeing it.

You guys just sound like you are going to call interference because he was breaking up the double play with a hard slide.

If it's a clean, hard slide that takes the SS/2B out, then there is no interference.

"Deliberately" taking out the fielder is allowed under some circumstances in all rules codes. So, just because the runner deliberately did this doesn't tell us anything.

If the question is "whose call is it?", then it should be BU's call becasue the ball wasn't thrown. But, if BU truned, PU should also be watching and can make any needed call.

IF the question is, "Was this interference?" then you need to give more information -- rules code (I assume OBR, since you said Babe Ruth), and where the contact was made, and any other actions by the runner.

If sliding off the bag, such that it can't be reached by hand or foot, to break up a double play is an illegal slide, then surely sliding past the bag, so that it can't be reached by hand or foot is also. Rule reference, 9.01(c)

Remember that deliberatly doing something doesn't change the way the call is made. There are alot of things that are done deliberatly in life to take advantage of the rules. Such as deliberatly have a baby in December to collect a whole years worth of tax credits for a child that you've really only cared for for less than a month (sounds kinda sadistic, but my wife and I had our son in December, not deliberatly, but I sure as heck deliberatly claimed him and the nice refund check that came with it to start his college fund). I know a couple though that deliberatly had their baby in December for exactly that reason. All in all, sounds like they've cheated the system but by following the rules its all good.

All this said, the plate umpire should have a good idea of what has happened, and assist the base ump in ruling accordingly on the play at second based on the governing rules

This is complete crap. You cannot rely on 9.01(c) here. Could he reach the bag with a hand or foot? If yes, then it's not interference unless there is a FPSR in place and there's a violation of that.

If not, the runner can "deliberately" break up a double play. What do you think that slide is for, anyway? If the runner slides past the base such that he can't reach it with a hand or foot, then call the interference. If not, don't insert yourself in the game because you want to be the protector of the players. This ain't chess.

--Rich

Thank you, that is what I was trying to get at.

Just because R1 "takes out" the player ON PURPOSE, doesn't make it illegal. That's baseball. As long as he doesn't go in spikes-up or can't touch the base, then it's a good, clean baseball play.

Don't be afraid to see a little contact out there on the diamond.....

Are you actually reading what I write or just firing off at the mouth, like so many coaches? You say "if the runner slides past the base such that he can't reach it with a hand or foot, then call the interference". I say "if sliding off the bag, such that it can't be reached by hand or foot, to break up a double play is an illegal slide, then surely sliding past the bag, so that it can't be reached by hand or foot is also". Now you tell me what's the difference and why this is complete crap? Also tell me where in the book sliding past the base so that it can't be reached by hand or foot is interference and I will not have to apply common sense, ie 9.01(c). By the way, this is Babe Ruth question, so when does FPSR apply in Babe Ruth?

It doesn't. Babe Ruth plays OBR for the most part.

And you are mistaken -- not only did I read your post carefully, I told you why 9.01(c) doesn't apply. You cannot pull out 9.01(c) whenever you want -- it only covers the rare situation that is not specifically covered in the rules. The interference that you are talking about is covered explicitly in the case notes in 6.05(m) and clarified in the NAPBL/PBUC manual to mean "reach with a hand or foot."

But keep in mind that a legal slide can be a deliberate attempt to take out a fielder and the collision can be pretty violent. Fielders should be aware of this and turn the pivot in a way that avoids this contact.

IMO, 6.0(m) case notes do not apply because the runner is not "leaving the baseline for the obvious purpose of crashing the pivot man on a double play, rather than trying to reach the base", ie he has passed the base, maybe even made contact with it on his mission to disrupt the play. This sounds like a situation where the runner slides 6 feet away from the bag to take out a fielder. In my 2004 version of the PBUC manual, section 4.3, which is titled "Willful and and Deliberate Interference" there is a quote "in sliding to a base, the runner should be able to reach the base with his hand or foot". None of the examples provided involve sliding past the bag to break up a DP, perhaps because that would not be "sliding to a base", it would be "sliding beyond the base". Most folks have access to 6.05(m) because it's in the rule book. but how many have a copy of PBUC, from where we read the hand and foot reference? And even after reading we don't have a clear ruling on sliding past the bag. I submit that 9.01(c) allows the umpire to rule that sliding past the bag is equivalent to sliding beyond reach of the bag, if the intent of either is to break up a DP, with no real intent to gain or maintain contact with the base.

We agree on one thing. FPSR does not apply to Babe Ruth.

Every umpire who works games using the official rules of baseball MUST have an NAPBL/PBUC manual. It is a necessary complememt to the official rules.

All I can say is that --- you're wrong. You are putting your own personal opinion above the way the game of baseball is called. If a rule committee decides that the fielder cannot slide beyond the base then they would specifically include that in their rules, like the FED and NCAA have. With the FPSR. The OBR is MORE LENIENT than the FED or the NCAA. It still requires a legal slide, but we've already covered what constitutes a legal slide.

One last question and I'm out of this discussion -- how exactly can a fielder slide feet first, reach a base with his hand, and not be beyond the base?

to be honest i don't think either one of you are looking at the main question but fighting amongst yourselves. here it states that the player DELIBERATELY over slid the bag to make contact with the player trying to roll the double.

what should be done by both umpires in the case pointed out by the first post of this topic? if the base guy didn't see it should the plate guy call it?


and to be truely honest here again, i would have to say that an umpire who can call the game on feel with rules and not belittle his associates in the umpiring profession makes a good umpire just as well as the guy who knows all the rules, but does not know how to carry himself on and off the field and on forums such as this

You've missed the point again.

Just because the slide is deliberate, doesn't make it illegal. At least not in OBR.

PS - it's BU's call if he sees it. If he's moved on, it's also PU's responsibility to call it if he sees it.

But this play sounds legal to me.

Who's fighting? He can slide past the bag by the way if his hand is wrapped around the base and knock the fielder into next month provided all other aspects of the slide are legal. Unless there's a FPSR specifically forbidding it.

Your last paragraph is unnecessary. Preach elsewhere.

Like I said, more than once, if he slides past the bag to take out a fielder who is working on a double play, and he slides so far past he is beyond the bag, and beyond reach, I am going to call him out, and the runner going to 1B. If I have to use 9.01(c) I will because I don't read anywhere that sliding past the bag is legal or illegal, so in my book it's illegal. If I am on bases and don't see it, because I turned my head on the DP, then I expect PU to get it. He should be watching for this. If the coach don't like the call he can come out and argue about it for about 15 mS.

[Edited by DG on Jun 8th, 2004 at 10:01 PM]

But it also depends on *where* the contact occurred. IF the contact occurred over (above) or in front of the base, it's not interference, even if the runner ends up well past / beyond the base, even in those leagues that have a FPSR (assuming nothing else about the slide was illegal).

As the play is described, I have a hard time envisioning R1 sliding past the base by 8' or so, then making contact and this happening in such a way that (1) R1 is out on the focre and (2) the contact interferes with F4/6's throw to first. Are we saying F4/6 caught the ball, touoched second, then stepped *back* 2 or three steps before throwing to first?

Also, the rule book is *generally* written so that illegal activities are defined; activities not specified as illegal are generally legal. So, I'd think twice about using 9.01(c) (or the similar rule in FED and NCAA) to define an illegal activity. (I'm not one who says "never use 9.01(c)." But, as a practical matter, it's rarely used -- especially if you consider the interps.)

DG - what other rules do you plan on inventing because you feel like it, and then when questioned, invoke 9.01C. That interp is atrocious.

How can the fielder be in such a position that a runner sliding through the bag loses contact with the bag, and THEN hits the fielder - and the fielder also be in such a position to force him out at second? It boggles the mind.

Saw a play that illustrates how that could conceivably happen in a highlight reel from yesterday's pro games, but I don't recall the teams.

The situation was a bit different: there were no runners on, so no force at second. But the actions of the fielder would cause exactly what you describe had there been R1.

F6 playing very deep, bouncing ball hit sharply just to the right side of 2B. F6 breaks toward the back of the bag to make the play, but F4 makes a great play and grabs the ball with his momentum carrying him to the bag.

Instead of trying to pivot 180 while going the wrong direction, he flips to F6 who is about 5 feet beyond the bag in a direct line from 1B through 2B.

F6 thows out BR at first. So the play was scored 4-6-3, one out.

Assuming there had been R1, he'd have been retired by F4 as F4 passed the bag. F4 flips to F6, R1 overslides and hits F6 as he makes the throw.

In that case, I'd call BR out on interference. If in my judgement, the runner is sliding at the fielder instead of at the bag, that's interference. If the runner has a reasonable chance of touching the bag, he's sliding at the bag.

It doesn't matter who he's sliding at -- as long as he can reach the base with a hand or foot. "Taking out the fielder" is part of the game at ALL levels, as long as it's done legally.

I understand that. That's why I said if he has a reasonable chance of reaching the bag, he's going for the bag.

I coach 8 and 9 year olds and I'm thinking of the young inexperienced player that slides and isn't touching the bag. Not because he's sliding illegally, but because he doesn't understand the concept of stretching out to maintain contact.

I had a play in my game a couple of weeks ago.... I was playing a game downtown in Toronto....

I was R1. There were runners on 1st (me) and 3rd with 1 out. BR chops a bouncing ball to 2B who flips to the SS who tries to quickly turn the double play... just as he catches the ball and steps on the base, I come crashing into his legs beside the base and he tumbles over top of me and ends up on the ground. I lost my helmet on the play, and still have the bruise on my leg from his foot. R1 out, BR safe, R3 scores. I got up, told him nice play to hang on to the ball, he said nice break-up.... play on.

Good baseball play all around.

Not quite right!
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DG

Quote:

Originally posted by DG Quote: Originally posted by mcrowder It would appear that in FED and NCAA just sliding past the bag is enough to call interference. In OBR the runner would need to be out of reach, and as I originally think I said, if he slides past the bag such that he can't reach it anymore, I have interference.

In FED it would only be interference if he interfered with the play so just sliding past the bag would not be interference.

He must alter the play being made by F4 or F6.

Of course, how in the world would F6 be turning a DP when he is six feet on the other side of the bag - isn't going to happen.

And how would F4 be six feet from the bag, - ain't gonna happen either.

Thanks
David

Re: Not quite right!
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David B

Quote:

Originally posted by DG Quote: Originally posted by DG Quote: Originally posted by mcrowder It would appear that in FED and NCAA just sliding past the bag is enough to call interference. In OBR the runner would need to be out of reach, and as I originally think I said, if he slides past the bag such that he can't reach it anymore, I have interference. In FED it would only be interference if he interfered with the play so just sliding past the bag would not be interference. He must alter the play being made by F4 or F6. Of course, how in the world would F6 be turning a DP when he is six feet on the other side of the bag - isn't going to happen. And how would F4 be six feet from the bag, - ain't gonna happen either. Thanks David

In FED, sliding past the bag and making contact or altering the play is interference. NCAA seems to agree. Just sliding past the bag and not making contact or altering the play is not interference. I never said it was, I don't think.

There ain't a play if a fielder is 6 feet from the bag. But let's say 2B is on back side of back and in contact, receiving a throw from SS. The runner slides past the bag, and either contacts 2Bman, or alters his play and ends up well past the bag, ie not in reach. Have you never seen this happen?

[Edited by DG on Jun 11th, 2004 at 12:51 AM]

Re: Re: Not quite right!
 

Yes -- and if the contact was beyond the base, it's a FPSR violation in FED and NCAA. If the contact was over (or in front of) the base, it's legal in FED and NCAA, even if the runner ends up in the same spot -- 6' of more beyond the bag.

The OBR rule (which I think is what was being discussed) is different.