This past season,I happened to ask a catcher ,(whom I
had called behind on three previous occasions),"Bill,what's
this reliever got?" His response to me simply was,"Not s$$$,
Blue".
My question for you is,would you have ejected him,or even
reprimanded him for his language,bearing in mind that he said it directly to me,and most likely nobody else heard him.I have a policy of not ejecting a good catcher if I can
at all avoid it.

If anything, I probably would have *chuckled*.
mick

I would have just told him to watch his language. But you did ask for it.

But unless he was using his language so that everyone on the field could hear him, I would not go as far as an ejection. And if you eject him for that, you will do nothing but cause more problems with yourself. Because when the story comes out, they WILL BLAME YOU!!!

But that is just my opinion on the topic.

Peace

If the response was just loud enough for me to hear, I would not do anything about it. If any fans could have heard it I would have cautioned the catcher about his choice of words.

Don't go looking for trouble.

Michael

[Edited by MichaelVA2000 on May 26th, 2004 at 11:54 PM]

Wow...is this HS ball??? College???

I don't eject him for swearing with me in a conversation that I start...I only eject him for swearing at me in an argument or discussing "balls" and strikes.
Or questioning my heritage...

Ejections are serious in HS ball...especially late in the season when ejections close to tournament ball keep a kid or coach down for a couple of games...

I wouldn't eject him for that...I would have snickered at his response and just went with it...sounds like he is a good honest catcher! :)

I am appalled. No one, so far in this post, would eject a player for a clear violation of rules that prohibit profanity, as long as it was done in such a way as the umpire is the only person to hear the profanity, ie the one person you don't want to hear profanity, if you are a player.

I contrast this to the recent big discussion on drawing a line in the sand, where nothing was said, but the vast majority of umpires take exception to the silent expression and eject immediately.

So what we are saying is we will happily eject a player who p*ss*s us off, but we will allow a player who has violated a rule to remain in the game, because we chose to ignore this particular rule. Say it ain't so, please.

Before this becomes a long drawn out post, be advised that I am funning you guys. I also ignore some comments from players. While the rules prohibit profanity, it is the umpire's judgement on what IS profanity. And, as we have already discovered in 8 pages of postings, many umpires would eject automatically for drawing a line in the sand, but some would not.

[Edited by DG on May 25th, 2004 at 11:56 PM]

Who actually considers the word sh1t "profanity?"

Jeez, you guys are prudes. Are youze looking for trouble?

--Rich

Real simple here , if your virgin ears can't handle profanity, not personnally directed to you, then please do the rest of us a favor. DON'T OFFICIATE.

If you REALLY believe that YOU are going to change the sporting world to be as wholesome as you deem necessary, its time to resmell the coffee.

Funny, I just had this discussion with my partner last night after a men's league game. He stated "that he was a born-again christian and personnaly didn't approve of the profanity" but, he also understood that he wasn't going to be the one to save the world from it's iniquitious. And, those officials with rabbit ears need not apply.

In your case, you ask the kid a question. Deal with answer because it was not direct a personal comment.

The rule allows a warning if the offense is judged to be of a minor nature.

I would love to see you or any umpire eject a player for a conversation that you the umpire completely started. The player was not arguing. The player was not disputing anything and did not chastise you. He simply responded to your silly question that you did not need to ask.

I would love to hear your explaination to a coach or an assignor/evaluator for this one. That should be a fun conversation.

Peace

While I agree with everyone else here that in this particular case the most you should do is say "Watch that language", I do take issue to the assumption that you shouldn't eject a player just because YOU started the conversation and his comment was a response to your question.

For example, after a couple of semi-audible groans from a particular coach on a couple of outside pitches(perhaps one you know almost never does this), you ask the catcher (no - I don't normally do this, but I've heard and read that some umpires do):

PU: "Catcher, am I missing those outside strikes?"
F2: "Yeah, those calls were bulls---".

You initiated the conversation - he crossed the line (and if that particular line doesn't cross YOUR line, insert one that does for purposes of this example - perhaps "Yeah, you must be F---ing blind"). He's gone.

I wouldnt toss him - thats like entrapment or something :)

Like the others - if it is derogatory or made out of anger; something like that, gone.

Anyway - I heard sh$$ on the simpsons the other night VERY clearly. Context is everything IMO.

It is not just about the who started the conversation, it is in the context of what that conversation is about. You asked a question, he gave it. He was not talking about an umpire or an opponent, he was commenting on a teammate because the UMPIRE asked him. And you think ejecting someone based on that makes sense?

Even in this example, I still feel the same way. That is why I do not ask questions like that. You might not like the answer or the response.

Well it does not cross my line, because I would have not put myself in that situation to begin with. So there really is not an example to give you. I just feel that when you engage players and coaches in "friendly" conversations like that, you cannot get upset when they might use language that involves profanity, especially when they are not directing it at you or your partner.

Now the original post asked for opinions. We all do not have to agree on how to handle this. But I would have never put myself in that position and then ejected the player for him being honest. Just tell the player to watch their language and move on.

Peace

The "Preacher" will now reply.

Listen to Rut.

I have not survived 25 years officiating 4 sports by ejecting everyone who swore on the field (especially football). I can guarantee you there ane many words that offend me and they are not all "swear" words. Rich, the word you wrote I do consider profanity but I am neither a prude nor do I go looking for trouble. (Obviously the rules of the forum prohibit profanity otherwise the words would have been written rather than inserting some cute character in the word).

Those times I did eject for profanity everyone knew why and no explanation was necessary.

When profanity happens around me I will give a subtle reminder to clean up language and move on. My purpose is not because of my "preaching" background but on contrary as a preventative nature. I don't want the game to digress by escalating the emotional aspect of the individuals participating beyond the exhilaration of the competition itself. That includes unnecessary comments/questions many umpires make.

Rut said it best. Don't put ourselves in the situation to begin with.

Are you serious that you would consider ejecting someone for this?

He was just having a conversation with you.....

I don't even know how to respond to that.

NC-17: Lots of cursewords included!!!
 

The FCC cannot define profanity.

You can turn on E.R., The Shield, NYPD Blue or a myriad of prime time shows and hear "****", "*******", "Tits" and much more.

Rut, While it's true that the umpire started the conversation, he didn't say, "Oh ****, [deleted colorful language]?"
He politely asked and was responded to in a teenage vernacular. I would probably laugh it off, but would keep it in mind, when I get the catcher looking at strike three on the outside corner and he says, "****, that wasn't a strike."

It takes a lot for me to dump someone - usually swearing at me, my partner(s) or another player or showing me up on a call. What this guy did in the original posts was forget who he was talking to, nothing more.

[Edited by mick on May 26th, 2004 at 05:30 PM]

COMPLETELY different situation from the original post. I could possibly see an ejection here, but in the original post I think the most you can do is just ask them to watch their language.

Big difference from, "My pitcher ain't got sh*t!" to "Your calls are sh*t!" Daryl and Rut put it best.

No, Rut - I did NOT say I thought the kid should be ejected for that. I was merely disagreeing with the assumption that since the umpire started the conversation, the kid could say whatever he wanted with impunity.

I can't imagine asking someone to watch his language based on what was posted in the original post. Serious OOO.

You obviously did not read the rest of my post and chose not to quote it all. Read carefully and you will see that I said I am funning you guys.

I think most folks would consider the word sh*t, used in the proper context to be profanity. I am not a prude, far from it. If a player were to strike out and say sh*t very loudly for all to hear, are you saying you would not eject because sh*t is not profanity? Many or most of the fans would disagree with you.

That is fine. But I would have never put myself in that situation. I would never ask a catcher his opinion about another player. I do not care what his opinion is about another player. And this whole thing was started by what the umpire asked.

Peace

I responded to the part of the post that I felt was the most relevant.

I think you take yourself too seriously if you really think someone was upset or outraged by your post. I was just responding. Not trying to start a war.

Peace

Peace

I'm sorry.Somehow I must have conveyed the thought that I actually considered ejecting the catcher. I did not. I was simply asking how you would handle it yourselves.
I was actually amused at the response he gave,as he was looking me straight in the eye,and was quite serious.I chuckled at his reply,and stepped away to watch the warm-up throws,only to see tha Bill was absolutely correct in his assessment of the pitcher.

P.S.

Am I to assume JRutledge , that you've never enquired about what pitches a pitcher throws , when you've never seen him before? I like to know if he has one,two, or three different pitches,but I guess I'm not as "Big Time" as some guys are.

Who cares?
 

I honestly do not care what he throws. I call the game regardless of what he throws. The batter needs to worry about what a pitcher has much more than I. ;)

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on May 27th, 2004 at 08:35 PM]

i don't think that i would eject but i would specifically warn the player and team about using this type of language. if i started the conversation is not important it is the fact that the word was used. the player knows better, and the coach shouldn't stand for it.

if he says any words that i can hear i will tell him whats going on, and that i will not and do not tolerate any language of that kind on a ball field.

but if he says it loud enough for everybody in the stands to hear, you bet your but he is gone from the ball game. talking to me is one thing letting the crowd here it is another. i would rather deal with the booking agent on why i tossed him rather than hear from the coaches on why i let him stay..

I've had kids yell out "sh*t" after getting thrown out at first base and I've smiled, made the call, and headed to right field between innings. If their coach doesn't want to handle that, I'm certainly not bothering.

I'm an umpire, and I'm not the morality police. Swear at me or get personal with me, and you're done at any level. But I don't get involved with nonsense like this. OOO.

In my career I know of several umpires (I reached six while deciding whether to join this thread) who lost important games because they ignored a player's cussing that was loud enough for ladies in the stands to hear.

Sh!t is certainly a taboo word. The way to determine what is proscribed: Would you use that word in conversation with a priest after mass?

Several in the thread have offered the "correct" solution: Regardless of who started the conversation, talk between umpire/coach and umpire/player is priviledged. No harm, no foul.

Mr. Fronheiser says he never gets excited when a player loudly cusses ("Sh!t") after he's been called out; after he <I>made</i> an out.

In my games at any level -- and in any association I've ever been involved with -- such language would be instant grounds for dismissal. As I said, some umpire who did not discipline the offender were put on the "don't-call-'em-for-a-game" list after complaints by spectators.

Well, perhaps that's a southern "thing," a Texas thing. Apparently, it's not a Fronheiser thing, and he's been in associtions in perhaps six or seven states.

Too bad. I'm sorry baseball in Wisconsin has dropped to that level.

Rich: Last year you called a very important Little League majors tournament. Eleven-year-old kid is out at first to end the inning. "Sh!t!!," he screams after you call him out.

You say you'd trot out to your position in right field.

I don't believe it.

Where I'm from and where I've lived 11 year olds don't talk that way on the ball field. I was referring to FED games, which for me means "HS Varsity" since I only worked one subvarsity game as a fill-in this season.

I've heard worse coming from players in college games -- you warn college players too?

What does a priest or mass have to do with it? With any of it?

I've not lived in a place where this has been a big deal, except in the minds of OOOs. If I ever move to Texas and am expected to police such behavior, I will. I've never had any problems fitting in at a new location after moving there.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

Quote:

I've had kids yell out "sh*t" after getting thrown out at first base and I've smiled, made the call, and headed to right field between innings. If their coach doesn't want to handle that, I'm certainly not bothering. I'm an umpire, and I'm not the morality police. Swear at me or get personal with me, and you're done at any level. But I don't get involved with nonsense like this. OOO.

I warn anyone, regardless of the age or level of play, who uses taboo words loud enough for people (especially ladies) to hear in the stands.

Kids in your state don't cuss on the field, you say. That's great! They do in Texas -- without penalty if spectators can't hear and the taboo words aren't directed at me or another umpire.

You said you didn't consider "sh!t" to be profanity. I said it was clearly a taboo word.

And you can tell what language is taboo, I said, by asking yourself: Would I say that in church?

BTW: What the heck is 000? Or OOO? Out-of-order?

I been wondering what OOO means also, but hesitant to ask.

The meaning of LIFE.
 

It means, "Over Officious Official." At least that is the nice definition.

And this is usually reserved for those that go looking for problems like profanity from players not directed at anyone. Or enforcing rules that no one even realized was on the books.

I just do not think it is in your best interest to go looking for problems. If you do not like the language of the players, do not engage them into conversation. Problem solved.

Peace

curses, foiled again
 

Taboo language is something you wouldn't say in Church???

Please...you can turn on the TV and hear "Sh*t" on any number of prime time dramas. "A**hole" was on ER the other night. I'm not encouraging them to swear, but I'm not going to melt either if a kid says "Sh*t" when he drops a pop up that costs his team the game.

Re: curses, foiled again
 

I guess your attitude reflects the difference between the values in our respective areas. In Texas we don't say "sh!t" in church. Or in the classroom. Some of the movies or TV shows depict language that would merit expulsion in my part of the country.

I'm afraid it's officials -- and teachers, and principals, and parents -- who are partners in the lowering of civility in other parts of the U.S.

BTW: I think you meant there was a "hoe" on ER. Unless the "hole" was in someone's chest.

Re: Re: curses, foiled again
 

That all sounds great, but I lived in Texas for a short period of time. My Father lived there until his death. I had an aunt that raised here two children (my first cousins) in Texas who died in 2001 as well. So I have strong ties to Texas and attended a school in Richardson when I entered High School. I was even saved and Baptised in Texas at 15 years old in a Church in Texas. Let me let you in on something, they cursed at all those places. Of course they did it outside of adults or where they thought adults would not hear them. But it is not my responsiblity to teach life lessons as an official. I can always say what is not appropriate and what I will not tolerate. But it is the parents to teach their children how to act ultimately. Teachers and police, just have to deal with what these kids have been exposed to. Heck, there are parents that never believe the times their children are arrested is actually the fault of their own children. But they blame the teachers and officials for punishing them.

Peace

Re: Re: Re: curses, foiled again
 

You're preaching to the choir as they say, but I also lived in TX and was a youth minister/music minister at many of the churches you talk about.

And as you stated, since they used the words "away from their parents - sources of authority" would tell me they knew the difference, what is accepted by their parents/church etc.,

I've always carried that to the ballfield also. The kids might curse etc., but they will know that I don't accept it and they will not continue etc.,

I don't expect others to do that, its my own personal preference. But, I believe that if I hold the standard high, it might just have a little influence on that young 15 yr old.

Of course, most of the kids know what I do for a living also, so many times they immediately follow their profanity with "I'm sorry blue."

They know what I'm fixing to say.

Thanks and AMEN!

David

I don't know anything about Texas, but around here, sh*t, said only loud enough for the umpire and maybe one other player nearby to hear is pardonable. Sh*t said loudly enough for all the fans to hear is an immediate ejection.

[Edited by DG on Jun 2nd, 2004 at 12:20 AM]

What you said!