Here's the situation.

R1 stealing. Catcher calls a pitch out. As the pitcher is in his wind up with the runner going, the catcher steps out of the box and steps into fair territory moving toward the pitcher as the throw comes in.

Would this be considered a "Catcher's Balk?"

rule 8-3-1c each runner other than the batter-runner is awarded one base when: he is attempting to steal or he is forced from the base he occupies by a batter-runner or runner who must advance because the catcher or any fielder OBSTRUCTS the batter, such as STEPPING ON OR ACROSS HOME or pushing the batter to reach the pitch or ......

I think:
runner who is stealing is awarded base, batter is not awarded either a strike or a ball since ball never reached home. Call is catcher interference, immediate dead ball and if the batter tried to swing at pitch and missed catcher, but catcher caught prior to reaching home, then we still have No Pitch.

Please correct me if I see this wrong.

yes i believe it would HAVE to be called a balk b/c not in catchers box at time of pitch

he IS in catcher's box at time of pitch, it is only after pitcher starts windup that catcher comes out. If there is a reference to catcher's balk in NFHS, where is it??

Not a catcher's balk
 

FED doesn't have a catcher's balk, but it could be catcher's obstruction.

I can't imagine him stepping infront of the batter, he could get hit, but if he interferes with the batter call it.

Since the runner was advancing he gets the base, and the BR is awarded first base.

If the catcher obstructs and the BR reaches first and all runners advance at least one base then the obstruction is ignored.

Thanks
DAvid

SCYGUY, You say he was in the box at time of pitch but out of it during windup. Do does he come out before the pitch and get back in prior to release? Even if he leaves the box during the windup, I've got something. 8 defensive players must be in fair territory and the catcher has to be in his legal position for the ball to be put in play. If he leaves the box before the pitcher starts his motion, call time. If he leaves during his motion, balk him.

FED: Rule 6, Section 1, Article.1, Last sentence; "The catcher shall have both feet in the catcher's box at the time of the pitch." PENALTY(ART.1,2,3): "The ball is dead immediately when an illegal pitch occurs. If there is no runner, a ball is awarded the batter. If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk. In both situatins, the umpire signals dead ball."

I had a similar play last week in a h.s. game with two bitter cross town rivals. Top of 5th, R3, 1 out, pitcher from stretch. Runner breaks for home just prior to P starting his motion home. RHanded Batter squares to attempt the squeeze. Catcher stands up and jumps out into the LH Batters Box prior to the release at the time of the pitch. Batter steps in front of plate and trys to bunt the ball that is 4-5 outside. Catcher catches it and attempts to put the tag on the runner but has to go thru the Batter.

Meanwhile I'm walking out from behind the plate with hands up and time. "Balk, Catcher was out of the box at the time of the pitch. No Pitch, No play, That run scores." Visitors win 1-0.

Coach trys to argue batter out of the box. Doesn't matter. Then tries to argue interference on batter with the attempt to make a play on R3. Doesn't matter since there was no malicious contact. Play was dead at the time of the pitch because of the illegal pitch/balk.

Coach goes fishing and says how can you see the release of the ball, the catcher, and the hitter at the same time. I say nearly impossible to focus on all three at once but read one step at a time. Ball is released, catcher is in batters box, who cares where batter is. I say the only thing between me and the ball at release is my West Vest. He then asks how many catchers actually stay in the box before the pitch is released. I say about 90%+ because both feet must be outside of the box at T.O.P. to be illegal. He understands and walks away.

Others on the site have said "We don't make explanations; we make calls!" I however believe and have been taught that if a coach has a question about the rules, you should state or explain it to them. By doing so and using rule book termonology, the light will go on in their head and they'll know you understand the rules. That's not cited in any rule book but it is taught as a useful tool. I do believe that the rule book says when a rule is questioned it should be addressed and not dismissed. Not in those exact words.



[Edited by MPC on May 7th, 2004 at 04:17 PM]

You might want to take a close look at the definition of "time of the pitch."

FED rules 2-28-3

You state above "If he leaves during his motion, balk him."

Unless I missed something F2 is confined only until "time of the pitch." That would be before F1 begins his motion.

Might be hard to explain that to the coach.

Thanks
David

No such thing as FED here for baseball, and I didn't see it specified.

So, as far as the OBR is concerned, if you're inclined to call a catcher's balk, please leave your name here so I can be sure to never work with you.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David B
[B]I'm not seeing your point. Of course I said if F2 leaves during F1's motion, I'm balking him under the guidelines of FED 2-28-3. Thus, if F2 steps out prior to F1 beginning his motion, that is nothing. According to the rule that you provide, if F2 steps out once the motion starts, balk. I'm fairly positive that is what I posted.

Hello Jim, my name is Mel Chandler. I only work OBR on occasions during Legion and/or other summer ball. When I do work those games I follow OBR rules and according to OBR 4.03a, F2 is allowed to come out to make a play.

When working under NCAA rules I observe 5-4 (a)"The catcher must stand with both feet within the limits of the catcher's box until the pitcher releases the ball. Penalty-It is an illegal pitch if no one is on base and a balk with a runner(s) on base."

Just to split hairs a bit, I enforced the play I described as an "Balk/Illegal Pitch" and not a "Catcher's Balk." I've yet to find a "Catcher's Balk" referenced in any rule books. Only reference to when a catcher causes a balk.

That might be what you posted, but it's not correct. Once F1 starts his motion (aka "commits to the plate" aka "time of pitch"), F2 can move out of the box, as long as he doesn't obstruct B1.

If F2 is out of the box at the time F1 starts / commits / TOP, then it's an illegal pitch -- which is a balk with men on base.

FED Rule 6-1-1 last sentence states that "The catcher shall have both feet in the catcher's box at the time of the pitch."

Time of Pitch is defined by FED Rule 2-28-3 "...Time of the pitch is when the pitcher has committed hinself to delivering the pitch to the batter. ...For the set position, the "time of the pitch" occurs the instant the pitcher, after coming to a complete and discernible stop, STARTS ANY MOVEMENT WITH THE ARM(S)AND OR LEG(S)THAT COMMITS HIM TO PITCH." (emphasis added)

If the catcher had both feet in the box when the pitcher, in his motion, started to the plate (as opposed to throwing a pick off to first) then it is legal and not a balk.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bob jenkins
[B]Stand corrected.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MPC
[B]

Quote:

Originally posted by MPC Originally posted by bob jenkins Originally posted by MPC That might be what you posted, but it's not correct. Once F1 starts his motion (aka "commits to the plate" aka "time of pitch"), F2 can move out of the box, as long as he doesn't obstruct B1. If F2 is out of the box at the time F1 starts / commits / TOP, then it's an illegal pitch -- which is a balk with men on base. Stand corrected if time of pitch ends the moment it begins. You are saying that once the motion begins, time of pitch is over and F2 can move. I'm under the impression that the time of the pitch doesn't end until the pitch is delivered/released.

To clarify, I would not say TOP is over, I would just say, "when he begins a motion that IS the TOP."

This is very important to understand since many of the base awards etc., are from the TOP.

You stated it was a balk, when in reality it was NOT a balk since F2 waited until after the TOP to move out of the box.

There are many umpires who read the material on this site and who might not post replies and we just want to make sure that misinformation is not spread.

And as Jim stated, this is something that you really hardly ever see in a baseball game.

Thanks
David

[Edited by David B on May 8th, 2004 at 02:04 PM]

My mentor has a saying that he uses often and it fits in this case -

"Don't let crap like that ruin a perfectly good game of baseball."

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David B



There are many umpires who read the material on this site and who might not post replies and we just want to make sure that misinformation is not spread.

And as Jim stated, this is something that you really hardly ever see in a baseball game.

Thanks
David

[Edited by MPC on May 8th, 2004 at 10:15 PM]

Well I don't have any of my books with me but my FED, but in FED if your HS assisgnor is calling it that way, then you might want to tell him he's doing it wrong.

The FED rules have been stated very clearly.

I've about decided that you like to stir a pot and then you don't have the rules to back it up.

If you can show me by rule in FED, then I'd believe you, but you can't.

Have a good season, as I stated before if you keep making these third world calls you're going to have a long season.

I like Jim's statement above. Baseball is just not that hard.

Thanks
DAvid

For the pitcher, and for awards, there is very little difference between TOP and TOT, since they happen very close together. But this situation sounds like catcher interference to me, whether the batter was swinging or not. If he is receiving a pitch in fair territory he is interfering with the batter's right to swing at a pitch. Batter awarded 1B, runners advance as necessary due to award.

Balk is always a pitcher infraction. The only time a catcher is involved is when the pitcher delivers to the catcher when the catcher is not within the catcher's box, something the pitcher can plainly see at TOP. I have never seen this called, anywhere.

"prior to release at time of pitch" This is the part I don't understand. If the catcher was out of the box before TOP then the balk is on the pitcher. If catcher moved outside the catcher's box after TOP then no balk and we have play at the plate to rule on, as well as a pitch to call (first item). Release of the pitch has nothing to do with anything. There might be a second or so between TOP and release of the pitch.

One last time!
 

Why does it matter when the TOP ends? What matters is when is the time of the pitch. FED has not overlooked it, they have a specific rule 2-28. It is not mentioned in the case book with any changes and its not listed in any of the FED interpretations for the last several years.

The FED rule is very clear, F2 must keep a foot in the box until the time of pitch.

That is in set or windup when he starts movement to pitch the ball to the plate.

Maybe what's confusing you is that NCAA and OBR do have a little different twist.

NCAA - The catcher must remain in the box until the ball leaves the pitcher's hand.

OBR - The catcher must remain in the catcher's box when the pitcher delivers only while the defense is giving an intentional base on balls. The F2 may leave his box when the pitch leaves the pitcher's hand.

But, official interpretation states "during the intentional walk the catcher may jump from his box as soon as the pitcher begins his preliminary motions."

Also - in OBR, during a pitch-out the catcher may jump from his box at any time regardless of whether the pitcher has started his preliminary motion.

So there it is clear as mud.

So for FED, your HS guy was completely wrong. Don't penalize the F2 for doing it correctly.

If you're using OBR or NCAA things are different.

As far as the play when the catcher obstructs (FED) or interferes (NCAA or OBR), (probably during a squeeze play) then you rule accordingly.

FED - it's basic catcher's obstruction. (since runner is advancing though he would get home)

NCAA - pitcher is charged with a balk and catcher with interference.

OBR - the batter and all runners advance one base on catcher's interference udring a squeeze or steal of home.

I pulled this last section from my BRD - good book you might want to purchase one.

Thanks
David

"TOP" is an instant. It has no beginning or end -- it just happens. It's not a period of time like a pitch -- which has a defined beginning (TOP) and end (when the ball is caught, comes to rest, is hit and whatever else is in 2-28).

Guys, you are all making valid points to support your position. However, it seems that our state interprets it differently. We are trying to get one of our state commissioners to get an official ruling or clarification from the FED rules comm.

There's no need for a rule "clarification." The time of the pitch is that moment when the pitcher is committed to delivery. You're confusing when the time of the pitch "begins" and when the pitch "ends." See FED 2-28-3 (TOP) and 2-28-4 (pitch ends).

The time of the pitch is important for: making awards, returning runners to bases, allowing the catcher out of the box.

You're staying that there is an end to the time of the pitch. But it's like the width of a line in geometry; there isn't any.

The situation: Pitchout during a steal. When is the catcher free to leave the box?

(1) In FED the catcher may leave the instant the pitcher begins his motion. I seriously question whether your state has a ruling to the contrary. Rather, I think there has been miscommunication. Happily, the FED rule book is crystal on that point.

(2) In NCAA, the catcher may not vacate the box until the ball leaves the pitcher's hand. Your college guy was right on that, except.... If you watch any college ball, you know that rule is simply not enforced. They use the OBR practice that applies to an intentional walk.

(3) In OBR, during a pitchout the catcher may leave his box at any time. He must remain in his box until the pitcher begins his motion ONLY when the defense is granting an intentional base on balls.

Strangely enough, Evans and Roder agree: Intentional walk -- The catcher can't leave until the ball is delivered. Anybody who watches major league baseball knows that ain't so either.

The BRD explains all this pretty well in Section 284.

Catcher leaves box after TOP, catches ball BEFORE it reaches plate and then tags out runner coming from third. Batter does not swing or make contact with catcher. Do we not still have catcher obstruction according the FED? Doesn't catcher have to wait until ball reaches and crosses plate (or at least the same distance as with a pitchout)?

I am not getting into the TOP argument, this is easy to distinguish, I was wondering about a throw from the pitcher that never reaches plate because catcher jumps out and catches it before it can reach plate.

That's called the same at all three levels. Look at FED 8-1-1e, NCAA 8-3p, and OBR 7.07. In the BRD it's section 285: catcher interference. In NCAA and OBR, it's also a balk.

thanks, that is the rule I quoted at the beginning of this thread. Immediate dead ball, award runner from third home, however, do not award ball or strike on pitch and do not award batter first.