Hello, I am a LL ump and would like to ask a question if I may:

In a recent game, one team's pitcher has a number of nervous mannerisms, including bringing his pitching hand to his mouth (wiping his mouth w the back of his hand) while near the rubber..the opposing manager complained and the plate ump warned the pitcher several times.....in my judgement the complaint was valid every time.

...the real issue was that a parent of the pitcher's team (in the bleachers) was very belligerent and kept loudly catcalling the other manager for complaining, telling him to 'shut up and get back in the dugout' 'why dont you manage your lousy team and leave our kids alone' , etc. This went on for a while, and no one, including the plate ump, ever warned him or mentioned it otherwise. It was very loud, persistent, and embarrassing, although the guy didnt use profanity, as far as I know. I thought it was a terrible example for the kids.

My question is, is there a provision for the ump to warn/eject the spectator about this if it continues for a long while (ie, after 'the heat of the moment')? I know heckling is as much a part of the game as anything else, but that's more at the professional levels, so are the umps at this level required to put up with constant heckling of this type from one team's spectators to the other team?

Just looking for opinions, or where I am off-base. Thanks in advance!

Personally
 

Personally I never even acknowlege fans in the stand. They can scream all they want. I "hear" but I don't "listen". I know that's not the case with many umpires (one at a game this weekend threw out 3 parents during one game).

If it becomes disturbing enough for me, I'll talk to the head coach about it, and usually they are courteous to take care of the situation. If not, then I call on the AD.

JMHO

"I know heckling is as much a part of the game as anything else, but that's more at the professional levels,"

What book or law or ordinance declared this to be true?

Usually, local rules allow this to be taken care of. In most cases if you put the burden on the coach, it goes away.

No ordnance or law, that was just my opinion. Inventive, witty heckling is, IMO, a part of the game (there's no law/rule that *mandates* the use of batboys, either AFAIK, but it's a tradition). Some hecklers are skilled, near-professionals at it. That leaves out profanity, however, which is almost always neither.

I just thought at the time, that the PU should have either warned the spectator directly or warned the coach (although all he could do was ask/plead that the spec stop) about it, esp 2-3 innings after the fact. He did neither, and it continued for most of the game. No real crime, I suppose, just annoying.

Heckling the umpire is one thing, and I'll usually ignore it until profanity comes into play. Heckling a player or coach from the other team will warrant a warning a lot quicker though. It's a tough line to draw though. I usually draw it when it gets personal.

Heckling is NOT part of the game in youth sports. It's amazing how many obnoxious adults there are. These jerks have no idea how it embarrasses their children.

Situations like this should be handled by the team's manager. I would have said a BOD member, but they usually hide from these situations.

Here's what you do. In a loud voice, call "TIME!"

Call for the BoD memeber on duty. Again, in a loud voice(loud enough for all to hear) state that there is someone in the stands that either needs to tone it down or leave. Barring that the umpire will put the teams in the dugouts until such time that they feel the problem is resolved.

Umpires have no jurisdiction over the spectators, nor do the managers. But they do have responsibilty for the playing conditions on the field, including knucleheads yelling from the stands.

Many of the fields around here have posted signs that list prohibited behavior, and something that covers heckling is usually included. I've seen the police arrive to remove loudmouths at soccer games. I've also seen umpires eject spectators (sometimes for pretty minor stuff, frankly).

One problem in girls' FP is the boys who stand behind the outfield fence and make lewd comments to the outfielders. Naturally, they speak loud enough for the outfielders but not the umpires to hear. This happens mostly in school, but I've had a couple of incidents in summer tournaments.

When I played baseball, there was a constant stream of heckling from both sides. However, use of a player's name was an unwritten no-no, as was profanity.

A manager shall have control over his fans. If he does not he has no respect. Tell the manager to get the player heckling stopped. If he does not get it stoppped, take appropriate action.

And that is???????

"A manager shall have control over his fans. If he does not he has no respect. Tell the manager to get the player heckling stopped. If he does not get it stoppped, take appropriate action. "

Sorry DG, not in Little League. In fact the manager is not allowed to communicate outside the dugout.

Look at it this way, if the manager were responsible for the fans on his side of the backstop, what's to keep some joker from jumping over from the other side and creating a rukus. And what, you'd dump a manager because some fan from the other bleachers sat on your side and yelled at his own manager(his buddy)? Comedy.

There should be a director or league official at the games. If deemed necessary, go to them and ask them to speak to the individual/s. They will handle it how they deem it necessary, even if it means having them escorted away from the field by local authorities, cancelling the game, etc.

Agreed, but as someone already pointed out, they love to disappear in these situations :(

What I do....
 

LMan,
I have never ejected a fan for the good of the game.
What I have done in situations that are similar, is:<LI><U>Locate</U> the offensive fan;<LI>Make neutral (avoid "evil eye") <U>eye contact</U> with them (loud talk usually stops here);<LI>Ease near <U>the fence</U>, near the offender, (making myself available for an answer);<LI><U>Explain</U> the concern of the questionable rule or the behavior, to the fans and/or the heckler.

In one instance, after making eye contact with a heckler, the heckler said, "Eyeball me!!!???!", but then he stopped.
mick

Last season I was the subject of a fan's ridicule in a JV tournament (and many other games--but those are other stories). I made an out call that the crowd didn't agree with. A fan began to heckle me from behind the backstop. Unfortunately for him, I was on the bases and had no clue anybody was saying anything. Worse for him, my partner was a bit cranky after working 4 games the day before, and was in the middle of a triple-header on that day. He got sick of it pretty quick, and asked the coach of the home team to take care of the fan, to which the coach was more than abliged. The fan overheard this and went ballistic. Next thing I know my partner is telling a fan to leave and asking the coach to escort him off the premises! It was only about my 15th game, so it was quite an eye-opener to my rookie eyes.

Then there was the junk after the game because the guy didn't want to leave.... Ugh!

-Craig

In my opinion, THE PARENTS/FAMILY/FRIENDS of the team ARE CLEARLY NOT the responsibility of the coach.

I don't have a problem with an umpire asking a coach to attempt to quiet his fans, but anything beyond that is rediculous.

The coach is out there to direct players, not be a moderator of the stands. Technically, they are to stay in the dugout/bullpen/field area during game time anyway.

I have heard of umpires ejecting coaches due to the heckling of their spectators. This is ludacris.

If the parents get out of control, what I would do is step in front of the plate, and treat it in the same way I would if an ejected player/coach failed to leave the premises within a reasonable time period.... I would suspend the game depending on the severity, and speak with a league representative.

I found this situation is best
 

If the fan is out of hand, Call Time, instruct both teams to tier dugouts. Speak with the offensive fans team coach to see if he can deal with it. Make it plain the game will not begin again untill the fan is removed. If the coach can't deal wit the fan, the kids and other parents will finally turn on the fan and get him to leave, they all want to watch the kids play.

P.S. They will begin by yelling at the ump -- Were not here to see you ... if hey are not switching sides quick enough remindthem that the fan is stopping hem from watching the kids not you.

It works and usually takes only 5 min or so of time. In this instance you will rarely have a problem with the fans of either team for the remaineder of the season.

Re: I found this situation is best
 

Exactly, that's what I was getting at with suspending the game.

It doesn't have to be for long, it can be temporary... like 3ah said, it will shut the parents up, as they will finally realize that they are hurting the kids.

Not that I would do this, but if it really came down to it, you could eject the spectator under 9.01c. In the league I ump, there is a bylaw that says I can eject a spectator if I think he is distracting the players. But that isn't everywhere, so I would just suspend time until the person shuts up or leaves.

heckeling
 

heckeling is a leauge by leauge solution ie: in my leauge heckeling a play coach or umpire results in parent and coach ejection from present game, and parent suspension from next two schedualed games. and the coach is responsable for his fans behavior. in geneneral moast coaches will take an umpires request seriously and take care of the offending individual. other leauges i have called for (including LL) have variations of this in leauge rules many prohibite ejection of spectators except in cases of threats or actual use of violence.

When I coached, you can bet your a** that I felt responsible for the bahaviour of my fans, especially the parents, relatives and friends of my players, and they all knew it. So I never had to say much to get one of my fans to stop being an a**. I never had any reservations about discussing the behaviour of the other team's fans with the opposing coach either.

Now as an umpire, I would expect the coach to handle it, and I would tell him so. I have also asked a heckler to leave. I can't call it an ejection, but the result is the same.

If the coach makes an effort and it does not work then league commissioner or other on site person in charge needs to be summoned, while we all stand around and wait. If the heckler is cussing and will not leave then call the cops. They will be happy to remove him. If the guy is just a drunk that showed up and has no affiliation with either team this may be what it takes. Otherwise, the coach should handle it.

If I suspend play and the guy doesn't leave, can I forfeit the game, or do I have to call the cops? -John

So this does not get out of hand, let me review. This is a LL game, and parent from one team is heckling the coach from the other team. The coach of the team with the heckling parent shall handle this. Note this is a shall not a should. I expect him to handle it will tell him so. Game is delayed until it is handled. If he ignores my request toss him and aske the assistant to deal with it. If the manager can not get a parent from his team to stop then the parent does not have any respect for the coach, and it's time for league officials to be summoned and lastly the cops.

Foreiting a game is last resort. If the manager can't get it stopped, and assistant manager can't get it stopped, and 2nd assitant manager can't get it stopped, and no league officials on-site, and cops are busy, and the other fans and parents have not whupped his a** yet, then forfeit the game.

If I was the coach and I could not get him to shut up, I would tell him to take his son home and don't come back. I would call the cops myself.

Just tell the coaches that the game can't be completed now, and leave the resolution (forfeit or continuation) up to the board.

<i> Originally posted by LMan

Hello, I am a LL ump and would like to ask a question if I may:

In a recent game, one team's pitcher has a number of nervous mannerisms, including bringing his pitching hand to his mouth (wiping his mouth w the back of his hand) while near the rubber..the opposing manager complained and the plate ump warned the pitcher several times.....in my judgement the complaint was valid every time.

...the real issue was that a parent of the pitcher's team (in the bleachers) was very belligerent and kept loudly catcalling the other manager for complaining, telling him to 'shut up and get back in the dugout' 'why dont you manage your lousy team and leave our kids alone' , etc. This went on for a while, and no one, including the plate ump, ever warned him or mentioned it otherwise. It was very loud, persistent, and embarrassing, although the guy didnt use profanity, as far as I know. I thought it was a terrible example for the kids.

My question is, is there a provision for the ump to warn/eject the spectator about this if it continues for a long while (ie, after 'the heat of the moment')? I know heckling is as much a part of the game as anything else, but that's more at the professional levels, so are the umps at this level required to put up with constant heckling of this type from one team's spectators to the other team?

Just looking for opinions, or where I am off-base. Thanks in advance! </i>

Spectators are not your problem. Since you said LL, a BOD member should be on "duty" and the BOD member should take care of this fan. Sounds like you had no BOD member available or have a weak BOD which is another problem altogether.

Here's the statement I have trouble with from your thread.

<b> including bringing his pitching hand to his mouth (wiping his mouth w the back of his hand) while near the rubber..the opposing manager complained and the plate ump warned the pitcher several times.....in my judgement the complaint was valid every time. </b>

You said LL. Is it LL Majors , Juniors, Seniors etc. If it's LL majors do not worry about it. If the coach keeps coming out, CALL TIME take out your line-up card and get "your point across" something like Coach that's enough etc. Do not threaten but make it known you will NOT tolerate any more complaints. If it happens again it's "Skip have a nice day"

If the game is played by kids who shave and you see F1 doing this, do some preventative umpiring like call TIME, pretend you are cleaning the plate off and tell F2 to talk to his F1.

You do not give multiple warnings. After you do your "due deligence", then enforce the rule.

Now what to do with this spectator.

HS - Talk to the coach and perhaps he can help out. If you are lucky enough to have any type of security around (very rare at a HS game), tell the coach to have security escort this person out or we are stopping right here.

LL - See if you can get a BOD member which from your thread sounds as though no BOD member was present. In that case STOP game at that point and refer to BOD and go home.

Bottom Line - CONTROL the game. You cannot allow a manager to constantly challenge your ruling and keep coming out of the dugout as ultimately the Fans will also get involved. You "nip the coach problem in the bud" and chances are you will not have a spectator problem as well.

Pete Booth

DG,

If you're umpiring LL games, you cannot require a manager to control spectators, and you have no authority to forfeit a game because of it. You will lose the protest that will be filed. LL issued new guidelines last year on how to handle these situation. Ask your UiC about them.

I don't do LL, never have. There is not much LL in my area. I know very little about LL rules. And thank goodness I don't, if LL does not expect a manager to have some control over his fans.

"I don't do LL, never have. There is not much LL in my area. I know very little about LL rules. And thank goodness I don't, if LL does not expect a manager to have some control over his fans."

Then why are are you offering advice on how to handle a Little League situation?

Excuse me! I missed that point in the original post and got wrapped up in the larger subject of fan misbehaviour. I will not post for LL questions anymore.

Heckling Fans
 

PeteBooth,
Valid points about handling coaches, but the original post was about dealing with unruly fans.

What LL is really about...
 

This is LL, we should be aware of the parents. LL is for learning not winning. Winning is secondary unless you are in the World Series. LL is for teaching CHILDREN how to be upstanding and fair young men and women, how to be gratious in defeat and humble in victory. If a parent of fan is exhibiting unacceptable behavior they need to be taken care of immediately, they should know better. And the other parents should tell them to grow up or they are just as bad.

I appreciate all the good comment. I understand the point about not allowing the coach to 'manipulate' the sit by constantly complaining about the pitcher's mannerisms, but I also see the learning point for the player in that, since he would be called for a balk sometime in future (if he continued to pitch as he got older) for doing that, then LL was a good place/time to get out of the habit of putting his pitching hand to his mouth while on the rubber. From time to time I have corrected players at the plate for *nearly* doing illegal things (foot out of the box, etc) before they actually drew a penalty, reasoning that LL is the place to learn how to do it right more than ring kids up right and left....now if they do it anyway after a warning, thats a different story.

Ive been involved in LL in my town for about 5 years and this is actually the first time Ive seen a spec/parent this unruly, so hopefully it was an isolated event. It did stick in my mind enough that I asked for input from your experiences, and I appreciate the feedback.

Little League is about winning
 

You are very confused. Let me explain to you what LL is about.

1. LL is about parents living out their dreams through their children.

2. LL is about coaches living out their dreams of greatness through the kids. Winning is the primary goal so that the coach can be selected for the AllStar team and have a shot at the LLWS. Why else would the coach with the best record be selected for the AllStar team?

3. LL is about learning how to cheat and not get caught. That is very useful in preparing for the SAT's and other college admission obstacle courses. The best cheaters get to be the executives of large corporations.

4. LL is about learning the nasty lessons of life such as losing is only for inferior human beings and losers deserve to be humiliated.

5. LL is about learning to disrespect umpires and other authority figures.

What planet are you from anyway that you don't know the true goals of LL? Sounds like you believe that communist propaganda that LL puts out.

Peter

Fans do not belong to a team or a manager. If they did, then I would like to dress in the opponent's colors and sit on their side in order to get that coach in trouble.

ALL fans, from BOTH sides, belong to game management. If that's the home coach, great. If that's a neutral party, great. But a coach is not responsible just based on which team a fan is rooting for.

Thank you, someone finally echoes me.

COACHES ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR PARENTS.

Coaches have enough to worry about on the field, and according to rule 3.14 or 3.15 or something..... players, coaches, etc are not to leave the field of play during a game.

They put in the time and effort, and if a grown person cannot control themselves, then why is it the fault of the person that has put countless hours into helping the kids learn the game of baseball?

It is ludacris to toss a skipper for a parent that is out of control.

What if the parent is someone who just came to watch the game for fun? How do you know what side they belong to?

Re: Little League is about winning
 

You are very confused. Let me explain to you what LL is about.

1. LL is about parents living out their dreams through their children.

2. LL is about coaches living out their dreams of greatness through the kids. Winning is the primary goal so that the coach can be selected for the AllStar team and have a shot at the LLWS. Why else would the coach with the best record be selected for the AllStar team?

3. LL is about learning how to cheat and not get caught. That is very useful in preparing for the SAT's and other college admission obstacle courses. The best cheaters get to be the executives of large corporations.

4. LL is about learning the nasty lessons of life such as losing is only for inferior human beings and losers deserve to be humiliated.

5. LL is about learning to disrespect umpires and other authority figures.

What planet are you from anyway that you don't know the true goals of LL? Sounds like you believe that communist propaganda that LL puts out.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Ok, up to number two your right. But besides that, you don't what your talking about. Since when do you want kids disrespecting authority figures, cheating on tests, and just playing to win and not having fun? If you haven't noticed, all the "big cheaters" in the "large corporations" have been arrested. The point of playing baseball is to have fun. Yes, it's great when you win, but the best part is getting out there and playing the game. -John

I would never allow a parent or fan that was supposed to be chearing for our team to show his his a**, and they all knew it.

Re: Re: Little League is about winning
 

Well actually I think there's lots of merit in what Peter writes.

I especially find #5 to be very true in all summer ball.

Why else is the umpire always to blame for a close loss, but you never see the umpire mentioned when they win.

Just reading this board and see ing all of the comments about coaches (which most are from summer leagues) is enough to give merit to that statement.

If a coach has respect for the umpires, then his players do. When the coach has none, then the players will follow suit.

Thanks
David

David,

That is the best response I have ever read from you on this board.

After 8 years of umpiring I have chosen to give it up......my only reason for umpiring in the first place was because it would force me to fine tune my knowledge of the rules and I felt that umpiring would help me become a better coach, when my kids were old enough to play. Well, they're old enough now and on the top of my list as a coach is to teach the kids not only to have respect for the game but also respect for the umpires as well.

IMHO, I think every coach should be REQUIRED to umpire at least 5 high school games (at all levels) so they can see what it's like to make an instant decision on a close play, be the scape goat when a team loses, make a mistake, etc.

Well let's have the coaches umpire 5 coach pitch, or 9-10 games before they mess up a HS game.

I owe my baseball life to little league. It was at this level that I learned the fundamentals of the game. Also, I learned a love for the game. I do not umpire LL, so I am not able to comment on your rules, but some of us ex-LLer's gained a lifelong appreciation for the game. I cherish my three years of LL and owe my LL coach a great deal.