Fed rule only

Situation 1

B3 on third heads for home. Pitcher who is on mound steps towards home and throws to cathcer without starting any preliminary motions and without coming to a complete stop. B3 is thrown out at home.

Is this a balk(and if so please tell me which Fed rule to look up)? I feel that it should not be a balk since the pitcher has a right to step towards a bag(in this case home) while a runner is advancing to that bag

Situation 2- Assume situation 1. Assume, if we can, that situation 1 is not a balk. The batter hits the ball from the throw of the pitcher who is trying to retire R3 going home. How do we deal with this situation since F1 is not technically pitching the ball but is rather throwing the ball to retire B3 coming home?

Thanks,

Greg

I got a case book reference for both.

For situaion 1: 2003 Case book 6.1.1 situation D.

F1 takes his sign in the (a) windup position or (b) set position. R1 at third attempts to steal home. F1 steps foreward off of the pitcher's plate and throws to F2.
RULING: Balk in (a) and (b).

For situaion 2:

I can't find a rule reference right now but I will keep looking. It is interference and the runner is out, unless there are already 2 outs, the the batter is out.

Ohh i fould a reference for situation 2. 2003 case book 7-3-5 situation G. I'll sum it up for you. It says the runner would be out for interfering. But if there are 2 outs make sure you call the runner out. And be ready for a possible batting our of order penalty next inning.

You are leaving out a very important detail here Gre144 and that is was the pitcher on the rubber? In FED, the pitching restrictions start as soon as the pitcher makes contact with the rubber for the purpose of making a pitch.

So if in fact the pitcher was legally on the rubber, he must step off (legally) in order to "throw" the ball to the catcher. Any movement toward the plate while in contact with the rubber forces the pitcher to pitch the ball to the batter.

In your situation #1 I have a balk. There is no situation #2 in this case.

Now in OBR, the pitching restrictions are in effect once the pitcher comes to set. SO up to that point, the pitcher can in fact "throw" the ball to the catcher.

He's also leaving out whether the pitcher was in the set (and if in the set was he "looking in" or did he come set) or the windup, and with which foot he stepped.

See, as I read it (pictured in in my mind's eye), F1 was in the windup and stepped with his free foot. That makes the "throw" a legal (if unorthodox) pitch -- legal plays in both situations.

That's the way I read it too, but going back he mentioned preliminary motions and not coming to a complete stop. I'll assume he means the set position.

Assuming the set position: I wouldn't let him throw to the plate without properly disengaging the mound by stepping backward with the pivot foot. Otherwise it is a pitch and it would be a balk.

Windup position, F1 can step and throw home and it would be a legal pitch if he didn't disengage.

Why must pitcher disengage?
 

Here is my problem. A pitcher who is in the set position while on the mound can do the following:

1) Step towards first while throwing the ball to F3 with R1 on first
2) Can step towards second while R1 advancing towards second
3) Can step towards third while R2 is advancing towards thirds

Logic tells us that he should be able to step towards home while R3 is advancing towards home without disengaging.

Where in Fed rules does it say that he must disengage from the rubber to put out a runner? To the contrary 6-1-3 says that a pitcher may turn on his pivot foot or lift it in a jump turn to step with the non-pivot foot toward a base while throwing or feinting as outlined in 6-2-4 and 2-28-5

6-2-4b implies that a pitcher may step towards a base with his non-pivot foot to retire a runner. There is no mention anywhere about the need for a pitcher to disengage inorder to retire a runner.
Thanks

Greg

Re: Why must pitcher disengage?
 

Did you not see what I said before. Read the case book man. It is right there. If the pitcher steps foreward and throws to F2 it is a balk. He must step off before he throws home. 2003 case book 6.1.1 situation D.

Re: Re: Why must pitcher disengage?
 

Same case play is in the 2004 book.

Re: Why must pitcher disengage?
 

Faulty logic.

Forget the specific rule for a second. Pitcher's are not allowed to illegally deceive a runner, right?

Now then, if a pitcher in the set position, in contact with the rubber, could step and "throw" to home as well as step and "pitch" to home, how could a runner differentiate between the two?

Re: Re: Why must pitcher disengage?
 

Also how can the batter know if he should swing. And how does the umpire know if he should call it a strike or if it is just a throw? That is why it is illegal because no one knows if it is a pitch or a throw.

Re: Re: Re: Why must pitcher disengage?
 

And in OBR, the pitcher can throw to a base from the windup position. And the pitcher does not have to "wind up" to pitch....he can simply step and throw to pitch to a batter.

How could anyone tell the difference? Your "step to the plate to retire a runner" could just as easily be a shortened delivery to the batter.

I am missing some big important fact here, because I can not understand why a pitcher, in the set position, can not throw home. After all, that is how a pitch is delivered. He does exactly the same thing movement and retires a runner, then so be it. The batter should hit the pitch if it looks good to him.

Now if the pitcher "runs off the rubber towards home" when he sees a runner advancing from 3rd that is a different issue entirely.

I would also add that a pitcher on the mound, but not engaged on the rubber can throw home to retire an advancing runner, and if he is engaged in windup position he can throw home if he does so in a normal delivery motion, even he does it quickly. A steal of home is risky if the pitcher knows what he can do.

Then it's not a throw, it's a pitch.

Quote from GB
"Faulty logic.

Forget the specific rule for a second. Pitcher's are not allowed to illegally deceive a runner, right?

Now then, if a pitcher in the set position, in contact with the rubber, could step and "throw" to home as well as step and "pitch" to home, how could a runner differentiate between the two?"




__________________
GB

Can't we use the same argument that runners should not be allowed to deceive the pitcher? The runner is advancing towards home to startle the pitcher. Whether the pitcher is throwing as a fielder or as a pitcher has no impact on the runner who has decided to run home.

Still no one has answered my question. Why can't a pitcher step towards home to retire a runner who is advancing there? Assume he is on the mound in the set position and has not come set.

He can step and throw towards first,second and third but not home. Where in the Fed rule book does it say that a pitcher, while on the mound and in the set position, cannot step towards a base, to retire a runner?

Because that would be a motion associated with delivering a pitch without meeting the prerequisite of coming to a complete stop with the ball in both hands in front of his body ... and that's a balk.

He can step toward home to retire a runner as long as he does so in a move that is not interpreted as a balk by the umpire. That is what we are discussing, what is, and is not, a balk. The fact that that the throw home could also be considered a pitch, different rules apply than at other bases. For example, a pitcher in the set position can throw to 1B without coming set, but he can't throw home without coming set.

Ok, this is a question for the history rule guru's, because I honestly dont know.

Is there any chance that when the rules discuss a throw to a base, that it excludes "home plate" as being a base in the same context? Or am I just wandering too far out of the baseline here.

He CAN throw home, but he must come set first. Because throwing home, while engaged with the rubber, is a PITCH. If he doesn't come set and throws home while engaged, he has balked by pitching without coming set.

If he comes to a complete stop, sees the runner breaking, and steps and throws home, it is legal. Because it is then a pitch. And the batter can then hit that ball and if not swung at will be called a ball or a strike by the umpire.

If he wants to throw home without having it be a pitch, HE MUST DISENGAGE legally by stepping backwards with his pivot foot.

You've been given the case book citation. It's the rule. How much more do we have to say?

No. Sometime we are confined by the rules. This is one of them.

Illegal deception by the pitcher is prohibited.

There is no illegal deception by a runner in real baseball unless you want to claim it under 9.01 and eject a couple of coaches, the runner and probably three or four others.

Thanks, I understand now. However, I think the rule should be changed to allow the pitcher to to quick pitch when R3 is advancing home. This would be consistent with him being allowed to throw to first,second and third while on the mound.

greg