Come and let me tell ya a story about a man named Jeb
a poor mountainman who berely keep his family fed
one season it seems that ol' Jeb took to umpiring
so as to put some extra vittles on the table
if you could call that thing a table
any hows ol Jeb was doing a game at the dish one day
when low n behold along comes a routine play at 1st
with no one on his partner bangs out the batter runner
and Jeb thinks yup sure nuff was a good call
now all of a sudden out comed the scorekeeper of all people all rambunctious an carry'n on with such a ruckus
now poor ol Jeb is beside himself with bewilderment
and kinda wonder'n and confused bout hows to get back inside
when ol hick pencil pusher jaws on Jeb bout gettn the
calls right fer gawd sakes
well yall knows what happen thens
pencil neck goes over the mountain and through the woods
real spritely we might add
so things are settled down and ol Jeb's back at the dish
when out comed the manager who now wants to jaw a piece
bout why pencil neck got winged like geese headed south
ol' Jeb knows bout this ol bird manager being a
arrogant dictator intimidating type
but Jeb lets him jaw a spell and then finally gives
the manager the word that this ain't going no wheres
so lets play some more of this here ballgame
ol Jeb figures since things went along after that
just as slick as chiken crap on a wet hen house floor
that things were all settled and done with
however a couple days later ol Jeb's assigner calls
and says to ol Jeb that hees a making a schedule change
cause that ol manager has called and donts wants ol Jeb back
says ol Jeb is an unapproachable sort a feller
now poor ol Jeb donts know what to do
cause he thought he done a gooden game
buts the assigner says thats the way it is ol Jeb
and you really donts want to sees him again away does ya
now ol Jeb being the poor ol ignorant hillbilly he is
just had an inkling hed sees what you all thinks bout this blackballn stuff and how to deal squarely with it
yall write back now ya hear

When the goin' get hot
 

Blackballing, scratching, zero listing comes up often in discussions.

Many associations (boards, groups etc.) have specific rules about how this process is used.

First, it is important that schools, conferences and teams have this right.

Second, I don't wanna go no where's I am not wanted.

Third, there must be a system.

I would much rather have a system of scratching umpires than allowing coaches the power of naming people they want . . . if there is a system it makes the coaches think before using this power.

I believe what Carl says is true on umpire/coach arguments. Arguments start by Umpire Error. This umpire error can grow into a conflict that is not good for umpires, players, coaches and fans.

In my area any coach can blackball any two umpires (however, when you scratch an umpire there is a very high chance you will se that umpire when on the road). The umpires are seldom (if ever) told of the blacklisting.

So tell ole Jeb (after all he is now a Millionaire) take the REST of his assignments and be happy.

There are more places to work.

Roger,

The coaches here don't have the power to blackball. On the contrary, we're such ornery cusses, if a coach were to demand that ump A never do one of his games again, he would get ump A for the next three games, guaranteed.

I really don't know how I would react to be being blackballed.

I learned enough about you at our social meeting this summer to believe what you say and to understand your bewilderment. Between you and your partner, I've heard enough about your association to wonder why you don't join another. Is Rochester too long a drive to work for those folks instead of the Canandaigua folks? How about Victor? Geneva? Shoot, just come out to Spokane and I'll put you to work.

GarthB

I don't feel that any association should allow a coach to blackball any umpire. The association should have a committee to oversee their umpires and give the coaches a forum to raise their complaints. The association should have guidelines as to how to deal with penalties that they deem pertinent. What if you called a good game, but the coach didn't like you for whatever reason, should that be a reason to get blackballed? I don't think so. Umpires should police themselves.

Regards
Phil

furst whees gottsa ask whys ole pencil neck sa comin jebs way instead of mr hatfields ways outs at BU ? Seemsalike heesa gettin off kinda easy fer starters. thout ole
pencilneck woodÂ’ve gone fer hatfield in this sitch? shur understand thet once yous behind the pig sty in the goop yous gottsa do sumthin to get out, and the last things yousa
lookin fer is more goop !

be in an ass igner meself, wees can only say wees a tryin to keep yÂ’all smilin. Butt, sum times weesa gottsa give inda the top dogs and does whats they wants dun. ujually thatsa just keepin sumin away from sumin else. Not to tuff to do evin ifin wees dunt like it. Dunt undastand tho why ole jebs goen fer good? lessen thereÂ’s ben lotsa udder problims befer. a good assiner can ujually suport a fue problems, itsa when theysa keep repete in thatsa tuff to do. ifin yer assiner dun gives ya no chance ta tell yousa side a whatsa gone rong, yousa prubably gottsa rong assiner. keepsa lookin fer sumin who betta presheates jebs talints. good offishells er in demand, speshally perfeshinal ones likin yer ritins in yer post seem ta sho. thisin isa problim tween yous en the leag, er the assiner, not the coach. sounds lik mees en yousa be a good match fer a cru.

Any association that allows a coach to blackball an ump is not worth working for. Any other umps in this association who don't refuse to work until this situation is fixed, should turn in their indicators.

Bob

I appreciate the humour, but do you realise how hard it is for an Aussie to decipher this kind of hillbilly talk? Â* :) Although there is no such system of "black balling" or "black listing" down here, I can understand the frustration. A couple of points:

1. The scorer is NOT entitled to be on the playing field and should have been sent packing with a "flea in the ear", post haste.

2. The manager should have been told flat that the scorer is NOT authorised to enter the playing field, much less to argue about judgement calls.

Sounds like "ol' Jeb" might be a ways better off away from that ground, but if I was his assignor I'd be sending him back in a 3-man crew with two of my toughest harda$$ officials. This manager AND his scorer need sorting out badly. The real problem comes if the umpire association is relying on a "contract" from this coach's team/league. I don't know how you sort that out in your system over there. Over here the league, and its member clubs, are PROHIBITED BY RULE from interfering in the selection of umpires. We've even had the pleasure of telling the League President that his "suggestions" for our District League Grand Final crew would be totally disregarded.

The fact is that coaches, managers, league presidents, etc., seldom have ANY IDEA what makes a really good umpire. They will often make judgements about an individual umpire's competence without ever having any clue themselves about mechanics, rules, interpretations, or anything else of relevence - and that includes game management. Our answer is to keep them away from interfering in assignments. If that is not possible then it is up to your assignor to eductate them as much as he can before eventually surrendering to their capricious whims over personality conflicts and the like.

I once worked for an assignor who would put the ball back into the complainant's court, saying something like "So this guy rubs you the wrong way, hmmm? Does he have a good consistent zone? Does he get the calls right most of the time? Would you rather have that or would you prefer I assign someone who is real easy to get along with but can't make consistently correct calls?"

Your assignor is the one who is in a position to influence, guide, or correct these people. All he needs is a little gumption! Now THAT'S a word I'm sure ol' Jeb has used more than once! Â* :)

Cheers,

Warren Willson

Jon Bible once said, "Perception is reality". In umpiring I tend to agree (most of the time). While I disagree with blackballing, and it is NOT condoned in my part of the midwest, if I perceive a coach has a problem with me working his games, more often than not I will choose not to work for him. Unfortunately, his problems with me, whatever their origin, will lead to the perception by his team that for whatever reason I am not the guy for the job. The younger the players, the more pronounced the influence the coach has on them. Young players hearing a coach say, "This guy is terrible" can usually be seen nodding their heads. Older players are more apt to be able to consider the source of the remark, and if they think their coach is a jerk they may not support his stand. I don't run from trouble, but I have given up assignments for the sake of The Game. I don't need the hassles, and neither do the competitors.

Poor Jeb...
 

He's-a-forgettin' that the manager HASta' back up the scorekeeper whenever she hoots and stirs up a ruckus cause they is married.

If'n the manager didn't say nuthin', his-a-wife woulda' smacked him on his head just the same as when they were brother and sister growin' up.

--Mario Fiermonte

Re: Poor Jeb...
 

You be a right smart feller Mario (and where's your brother)
I'd totally overlooked this possibility,
gosh darn and gee wilikers.......comes to think'n bout it
I think they was ALL those things!



QUOTE]Originally posted by Mario F
He's-a-forgettin' that the manager HASta' back up the scorekeeper whenever she hoots and stirs up a ruckus cause they is married.

If'n the manager didn't say nuthin', his-a-wife woulda' smacked him on his head just the same as when they were brother and sister growin' up.

--Mario Fiermonte

[/QUOTE]

At first I thought you guys were poken at me. Then I just realized you are just ignert of proper spellen and gramer.

Let me site an example.

" his-a-wife woulda' smacked him on his head "

--Mario Fiermonte

The proper phrase is --- smacked him up BESIDE the head.

C.C. can teach you the Kings way, I'll correct you when try to be a crackers.

Thank God for spell check.


rex

[QUOTE]I don't need the hassles, and neither do the competitors.

This quote is the bottom line. I've been blackballed one time. It was from a coach for whom I'd never worked a game. He got the uniform numbers wrong and blackballed the wrong guy. Since the umpires are never notified of a coach's blackball, I only found out about it 2 years later quite by accident.

I can't say I honestly cared one way or the other. One assignment is pretty much like another in my book.

Vern

Vern,

Would you have cared if that coach had got the uniform numbers right and you were still red lined?

The problem I have with this practice is that it is really a defacto way of attempting to unfairly influence the outcome of a game. I'm sure that at least some competitors would object to that if they truly thought it through.

A coach who says he doesn't want you around is not going to do it, most of the time, simply because he doesn't like you. Ask Carl Childress if that is or isn't so. It is my understanding that, in the NFHS system at least, the coach has a limited number of such "red lines" he can draw through umpire's names on the assignor's sheet. Why waste them on strictly personal issues?

I believe that most coaches would be much more likely to use the "black ball" if they felt their team would benefit by not having this umpire or that call their games. Maybe it's because the guy won't call high curves when the coach has a curve ball pitcher who can't break them early enough. Maybe it's because the guy gives a bit too much at the outside of the plate, and his weaker hitting team struggles as a result. Do you see the point I'm making here?

It doesn't matter whether the they are right or wrong in their assessments, coaches and players should NOT be able to set the tone for any game by helping to decide who does or doesn't get the opportunity to make the call. That's against the real spirit and intent of the game.

Cheers,

Warren Willson

"Hottt dangg is'n that you daddy????"
Truth be told ol Jeb has only had 7 players and two coach ejections in 16 years - the only questionable ejection was the first coach Jeb tossed, Jeb probably should have keep quiet himself but that would have only keep ol coach around a bit more cause he was a itch'n ifn you knows what I mean.
Ol Jeb never has figered out why pencil neck came a jaw'n at him cause it was his a partners call. Partner and Jeb had a good chuckle over how partner skated and ol Jeb took the heat for some dang reason.
Ol Jeb has come of the belief that dat ol ass igner belongs n the chicken coop with the rest of the poop.....
As to doing a game - Jeb's sorry to say that will have to be a put on hold..... wez a gitten dumped on with tha white crap right now, bout a foot worth - - - pith!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Warren Willson It doesn't matter whether the they are right or wrong in their assessments, coaches and players should NOT be able to set the tone for any game by helping to decide who does or doesn't get the opportunity to make the call. That's against the real spirit and intent of the game.

I wasn't going to go into this but I will. Blackballing umpires, if done for the correct reasons, is a gift to the umpire association. You can't hide a bad umpire for long.

Example. Two years ago, an umpire was assigned to a playoff game and got the plate. I was in the stands, out of uniform, to do a later game. For no apparent reason, this guy, called a runner out while rounding third after a home run. The third base coach shook his hand as he rounded the base. When the inevitable riot started I left the stands and hid behind the concession stand.

My point is that these two schools were like the 14th and 15th schools to blackball this guy. He couldn't get any more assignments, he was running out of schools. Justice was served, and the association, which rarely has enough umpires to double cover all the games, didn't have to make a move.

Vern

Old Jeb and that darn Blackball
 

Awright, I read all the posts above . . . it took awhile since my lips move when I read.

I do not want to sound anything like Peter Osborne but there is an issue here . . .

I support a definitive blackball system. As an ex-assignor I want all types of feed back on the performance of my crews. While a blackball is a rather severe rating it still has value.

I also want to make sure you all saw that I noted after being blackballed in my local that you head back VERY soon to catch the coach when his team is on the road.

Now let me explain WHY I think blackballing is acceptable with limits:

Not all umpires are good.

Not all umpires can handle all levels of games.

Not all umpires can handle all types of people.

Not all coaches are bad.

Not all levels of ball can be called correctly by all umpires.

Not all coaches can handle the attitudes of all umpires.

Umpires need to be evaluated. Umpires need to be controlled by their local group.

I have always said, "I don't want to work someplace that doesn't want me to work there!"

I have said that becasue I don't need another distraction. I don't need to know going in that my skills are not accepted.

The knee-jerk reaction of "by God, nobody is going to blackball any of my umpires!" does no good for anyone.

I have been blackballed ONCE in my life and it has lasted for 26 YEARS. One day one of us will die and the conflict will be over.

BTW, I DESERVED to be blackballed by this coach.

Rog, sometimes it's not how many bad occirrences, but the content of those occurrences.

Let's take the case of McPherson, an old Scotsman sitting at a pub with a younger lad. He comments to the lad, "the worrld's a crruel place, lad. If you look out that window to the east you'll see a fine house. I built that house with me own sweat, haulin everry piece of lumberr and pounding everry nail. But when I walk down the strreet do they point at me and say, Look, therre goes McPherrson, he's a housebuilderr? No, lad, they don't !!"

"And if you look out the window to the west you can see that pierr. I built THAT pierr with me own sweat, haulin everry stick of lumberr and poundin everry nail. And it can withstand ANY storrm. But when I walk down the strreet, lad, do they point and say, Look, therre goes Mcpherrson, he's a pierrbuilder? No, lad, they don't !!"

"But let me tell you, lad, you F___ just one goat........

Now, Rog, depending on the severity of previous issues and how hard you try, you can't dump a problem you've had in the past, regardless of how much GOOD you've done since. Unfortunately, sometimes you'll run into those who hold a mistake on you forever, even minor ones. Then you'll find some who find fault with your mistake even though they don't hold the same mistake on their buddy.
That's what I call the McPherson Syndrome. That's life, though not always fair.

Ok, Vern. IF the blackballing is done for the "right" reasons THEN as Tee also points out, it can be a valuable tool for the assignor in assessing his troops.

That notwithstanding, the fundamental principle is STILL wrong, IMHO! My point was that most players and most coaches seldom IF EVER have any real idea what makes a good umpire. It's simply not their job to know that. Your guy in the example above made it VERY obvious the time you saw him and probably did the same for the 14 or 15 times before as well. Was there any attempt after the first two or three red lines to get this guy some additional instruction or watch him and critique his performance? Was he EVER helped to improve his game?

What about the times when guys were blackballed for no good and discernable reason? Were these attempts to manipulate the system? Were they coaches who simply had no idea that the umpire was actually doing the right thing? I like Tee's idea of giving these guys the away games, so the coach gets to see the guy again, as a sort of chance to recant, and also knows the umpire has his assignor's support (barring a litany of continued screw ups of the like you mention).

We can pull up all sorts of anecdotal evidence for one side or the other. The bottom line is that, justified or not, this is a system that allows the coaches and teams to influence by exclusion the proper selection of officials, and in so doing leaves much room for manipulation of that system to the coach's and his team's advantage. Surely there is a better way, if we really look hard enough.

How about we get assignors to do their jobs for a start? I know those guys can't watch every umpire every game. In the associations where they can't assign two guys per game for lack of numbers then they're pretty well in the doo doo unless they can find a way to swing a double team every so often. For the rest, what about using partner evaluations to highlight the guys who might need to be watched and perhaps helped a little in their process of development? I know from experience that this can work well, if you pick the right partners. Our Umpire Development Officer has 2 or 3 guys whose evaluations he can trust to be fair and informed, and he rotates them through the partners who need watching. It works. League feedback has the whole standard in our association rising dramatically over the last few years.

It is my belief that far too many associations, and the assignors they appoint, simply turn their charges loose without ever really looking at their progress in a game situation. Fitting names to roster slots takes over as the single most important task. That's not fair to the coach's or the teams they are given and it's not fair to the guys themselves because they have no measure of their progress outside of perhaps some annual clinic.

This red lining can't be the ONLY way to achieve the weeding out process or flag guys who might need further development. It is far too open to abuse. It didn't appear to be working in the case in your example. The guy had 14 or 15 prior blackballs and STILL was assigned the plate in a playoff? Gimme a break! He should have been looked at come Hell or high water LONG before it got to that stage!

Cheers,

Warren Willson

[Edited by Warren Willson on Nov 21st, 2000 at 03:55 PM]

Thank you for that advice, Hayes. Of course, I was referring to the "NFHS <b><i>system</i></b>" in general and NOT specifically to the NFHS as an organisational body. Whether or not individual contracts formalize the right for coaches or schools to "blackball" or "red line" a certain number of umpires, I believe the overwelming practice is for assignors or associations to allow coaches and schools a limited number of these "choices" as a customer service. I also know there is "no national authority relating to this matter". I was simply referring to the systemic imbalance in favour of this practice.

Cheers,

Warren Willson

Warren:

As you dig the foxhole, make room for me.

I won't go as far as you, even. No assignor, association, or league, worth his or its salt, should ever, EVER need something as drastic as a blackballing policy to provide input, or assist in anyway, in the evaluation of umpires.

That's akin to waiting for a heart attack to evaluate your cholesterol level.

Sheeeeeeeeeeeesh.


GarthB

Sorry Garth,
 

There can come a time in any relationship where a divorce can become necessary.

While I am certainly not high enough in my local group to impact this issue I can speak as an experienced umpire.

Garth, there are people who just can't get along . . . we have a customer (oh, I know that rings of Peter) and if a system is in place you cannot evaluate that sytem from the outside.

You have every right to feel as you do . . . make all the value judgements you want . . . but there are people that feel different from you and they are the AD's, administrators, and even State Representatives of leagues.

I will pass into the sunset on this issue simply agreeing to disagree.

Thanks for the discussion Garth!

Misunderstood
 

Apparently my previous post was misunderstood.

I do not disagree with what Tim C has said in his most recent post. He is correct. I do not take issue with him on these points and I do not mean to attack anyone's opinion.

My disagreement in this issue is not with the symptoms, nor the disease. It is with the cure.

I believe that when assignors and evaluators do their job, there is no need for the practice of "black balling". Black balling puts power in the wrong hands, and that, I believe, is always dangerous.

The power to assign and evaluate should belong in the hands of the associations, not the coaches.

Black balling is an extreme measure used far too often in far less than extreme cases. We do not amputate arms when a finger is broken. We attend to the finger.

And, like Tim C, I understand that there is room for disagreement in this and nearly every issue. My intent in this post is not to press that disagreement, but, hopefully, to better explain my original position.

I shall join Tim C, now in his ride into the sunset in regards to this issue. (Hey Cisco, wait for me.)

If anyone would like to discuss it further or change my feeble mind, feel free to contact me via email at [email protected]

[Edited by GarthB on Nov 22nd, 2000 at 02:01 PM]

Ol Jeb and his hound dog....
 

Ol Jeb is a tak'n his hound dog and a go'n a hunt'n; but, before he does he's a want'n ta jaw a piece with ya'll bout the great input and heartbeat'n discussion on this issue.
Now ol Jeb's only burr on his situation lends to Garth's statement:
"My disagreement in this issue is not with the symptoms, nor the disease. It is with the cure."
Ya see, that kinsa waz the case fer poor ol Jeb, seems the matter was a done deal and ol Jeb never know'd what, why fer or how comes it cames to be!
Be that as it may, ol Jeb is off with his best rabbit dog an a hunt'n good ol bugs bunny - cause wez gots some goods track'n weather, 2 foot + of that thar white stuff
and a mores a come'n.
Ya'll have a good Thanksgiving; and, ya'll come back now - ya hear!

Hayes:

You're correct. I've worked FED in football, baseball, softball, basketball and volleyball, and have NEVER seen a reference to redlining. That's strictly a local matter. In the associations I've been a member of (assignor for two), a valid written reason had to be given to redline an official. We don't allow coaches or a.d.'s to tell us who to assign.

Bob

As an old saying goes "If it's important, enough, write it down". Otherwise it's just talk (whining).

rex

What about the times when guys were blackballed for no good and discernable reason? Were these attempts to manipulate the system?

Warren Willson

[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm an older, probably more confident (arrogant) umpire. I call a wider strike zone that a lot of young guys who call pitches strikes when they actually hit the black. Are you saying that a high school coach would redline me because he has a "control" pitching staff in an attempt to cash in on a young official's unwillingness to call the outside pitch...?

I guess it's possible, but I don't think I've ever run into a coach who was that devious...or that smart.

Vern

It works both ways
 

Last year our association did something new and let umpires choose which schools they wanted to call.

In other words, we could blackball schools that we didn't want to have to put up with.

I thought it was great. There are several coaches who no one really wants to be around because of their continual whining and most of the veterans liked being able to say I don't want to go there.

We have one school that is one of the best teams in the state every year; they are usually one of the top ranked teams in the state, and have won four championships in the last 10 years. However, their coaches constantly whine, their fans are horrible, the police have to be their every time they play because of unruly actions towards umpires, opponents etc.

Most all of the veteran umpires chose not to call there last year and it was great. The coach was stuck with young umpires in their first five years etc.

I ran into the coach on the road and he asked me, "you haven't been to our place this year, what's up?". I didn't tell him we just don't choose to call at your place, but I was laughing as he told me some of the things that have been called on them this year with the young umpires.

What goes around comes around.

Thanks
David

Yeah, that's what I mean ... or what about the reverse? I've got a young umpire who calls a tight zone, but my pitching staff struggles for control and NEEDS the bigger zone AND the outside pitch to go their way. My batters can handle that bigger zone as well as any others. So ... would I red line the younger guy with the "rule book" zone and hope YOU turned up for our games in future? You bet!

Maybe the coaches are just way smarter where I come from, but I honestly don't think so. Give 'em credit, Vern. Coaches will take what you give 'em and then some! If it ain't illegal and it gives them an advantage, they'll find out about it and use it. And even some times if it IS illegal, but they <i>think</i> they can slip it by us. (grin)

Cheers,

Warren Willson

[Edited by Warren Willson on Nov 25th, 2000 at 06:16 PM]