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-   -   When is a sub the pitcher? (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/103609-when-sub-pitcher.html)

john5396 Fri Mar 02, 2018 01:33pm

When is a sub the pitcher?
 
Last night, High School Varsity, NFHS rules

At beginning of the new inning, home team takes the field. F2 was on base, so slow in coming onto the field. Substitute S1 comes to the pitchers mound and stands behind the rubber waiting for F2. S1 has not been reported to PU as a substitute yet. After about 30 seconds home coach comes to the PU and asks if S1 is in the game? Does he have to face a batter? Coach has changed his mind or maybe S1 thought coach was putting him in and he came out without instructions...

Partner and I discussed, decided since 1) he did not toe the rubber or throw warm-up pitches, and 2) he was not reported as a sub. We ruled he was not in the game and did not have to face a batter. The coach then put the F1 continuing from the previous inning on the mound.

When does S1 become the new F1? When does he become the new pitcher and is required to face a batter?

umpjim Fri Mar 02, 2018 02:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by john5396 (Post 1018101)
Last night, High School Varsity, NFHS rules

At beginning of the new inning, home team takes the field. F2 was on base, so slow in coming onto the field. Substitute S1 comes to the pitchers mound and stands behind the rubber waiting for F2. S1 has not been reported to PU as a substitute yet. After about 30 seconds home coach comes to the PU and asks if S1 is in the game? Does he have to face a batter? Coach has changed his mind or maybe S1 thought coach was putting him in and he came out without instructions...

Partner and I discussed, decided since 1) he did not toe the rubber or throw warm-up pitches, and 2) he was not reported as a sub. We ruled he was not in the game and did not have to face a batter. The coach then put the F1 continuing from the previous inning on the mound.

When does S1 become the new F1? When does he become the new pitcher and is required to face a batter?

3.1.1 covers it. He's the pitcher if the home coach reported it to you. That didn't happen in your OP. He's the pitcher if he takes the rubber unreported and the ball is live. That didn't happen in your OP. Warm up pitches would not mean anything. Does your chapter give you a rule book or training?

ilyazhito Wed Apr 25, 2018 01:32pm

If he is on the rubber when "Play" is called, he is a pitcher.

If he throws more than 8 warmup pitches (he entered because F1 was injured/ejected, or the plate umpire decided to allow extra warmup pitches), the substitute is now the pitcher, and the original pitcher must re-enter later.

umpjim Wed Apr 25, 2018 06:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1021091)
If he is on the rubber when "Play" is called, he is a pitcher.
If he was unreported
If he throws more than 8 warmup pitches (he entered because F1 was injured/ejected, or the plate umpire decided to allow extra warmup pitches), the substitute is now the pitcher, and the original pitcher must re-enter later.

Warm up throws have no bearing on whether he is in the game as a pitcher whether he’s a reported sub or not. But since you and the OP mention warm ups, where do you get this?

Matt Wed Apr 25, 2018 08:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1021091)
If he throws more than 8 warmup pitches (he entered because F1 was injured/ejected, or the plate umpire decided to allow extra warmup pitches), the substitute is now the pitcher, and the original pitcher must re-enter later.

I understand your logic--however, it is not correct.

Keep in mind that the warm-up pitch limitation specifies "substitute." If he never becomes a substitute, then the pitches he throws are irrelevant.

Also keep in mind that if F1 was injured or ejected, PU better be having a conversation with his HC to get the situation (in the case of an injury) and substitute. If I see a new arm out there in any circumstance, I validate the substitution--sometimes it's not a straight switch, particularly in HS ball.

ilyazhito Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1021091)
If he is on the rubber when "Play" is called, he is a pitcher.

If he throws more than 8 warmup pitches (he entered because F1 was injured/ejected, or the plate umpire decided to allow extra warmup pitches), the substitute is now the pitcher, and the original pitcher must re-enter later.

All of this applies if he was not reported. If he is reported, he becomes a player when he is reported to the umpire, and his name is entered into the batting order (whether into a spot that hits, or into the 10th spot, if the DH bats for him).

umpjim Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1021099)
All of this applies if he was not reported. If he is reported, he becomes a player when he is reported to the umpire, and his name is entered into the batting order (whether into a spot that hits, or into the 10th spot, if the DH bats for him).

If he was reported he is in the game when he is reported, entered, and announced.
Would you mind citing the rule you are using regarding warm up pitches? And read @Matt's post before you do.

CT1 Thu Apr 26, 2018 07:07am

Maybe the confusion about >8 warmup pitches is with the "can't return" provision.

john5396 Thu Apr 26, 2018 08:06am

So I think the rule I'm asking about is not 3.1.1 but 3.1.2.

If a pitcher is replaced while his team is on defense, the pitcher shall (complete the current at bat, paraphrase from the complete rule, please forgive me)...

When is he "replaced".

If the coach has a conference mid inning, takes the ball from the pitcher and gives it to the shortstop, when does F6 become F1 in terms of 3.1.2. In my neck of the woods, when there is just a position swap, the coach will not make a report of this change to the umpire. If previous F6 takes the rubber and starts warming up, is he required to face a batter? Or as UMPJM points out, he isn't the pitcher till the ball is placed in play. Could the coach watch old F6 warm up, decide after 5 warmup pitches that he doesn't have the "stuff" today and then give the ball to F4?

Ween does F6 become the new F1, and under 3.1.2 he is required to face one batter? When the coach hands him the ball?, When he starts throwing warmup pitches? or when warmup is complete and the umpire puts the ball in play?

So, the core of my question is, under 3.1.2, when is a pitcher "replaced"? My OP had the additional detail that the potential new pitcher was a potential unreported sub, but since ball has not been put in play, it is nothing and the coach pulled him back off the field before the ball was made live or he was reported, so that was nothing.

Matt Thu Apr 26, 2018 09:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by john5396 (Post 1021109)
So I think the rule I'm asking about is not 3.1.1 but 3.1.2.

If a pitcher is replaced while his team is on defense, the pitcher shall (complete the current at bat, paraphrase from the complete rule, please forgive me)...

When is he "replaced".

If the coach has a conference mid inning, takes the ball from the pitcher and gives it to the shortstop, when does F6 become F1 in terms of 3.1.2. In my neck of the woods, when there is just a position swap, the coach will not make a report of this change to the umpire. If previous F6 takes the rubber and starts warming up, is he required to face a batter? Or as UMPJM points out, he isn't the pitcher till the ball is placed in play. Could the coach watch old F6 warm up, decide after 5 warmup pitches that he doesn't have the "stuff" today and then give the ball to F4?

Ween does F6 become the new F1, and under 3.1.2 he is required to face one batter? When the coach hands him the ball?, When he starts throwing warmup pitches? or when warmup is complete and the umpire puts the ball in play?

So, the core of my question is, under 3.1.2, when is a pitcher "replaced"? My OP had the additional detail that the potential new pitcher was a potential unreported sub, but since ball has not been put in play, it is nothing and the coach pulled him back off the field before the ball was made live or he was reported, so that was nothing.

There has to be one of two sets of conditions where the new pitcher is a substitute. The first reply to your post has them both.

umpjim Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:21am

Quote:

Originally Posted by john5396 (Post 1021109)
So I think the rule I'm asking about is not 3.1.1 but 3.1.2.

If a pitcher is replaced while his team is on defense, the pitcher shall (complete the current at bat, paraphrase from the complete rule, please forgive me)...

When is he "replaced".

If the coach has a conference mid inning, takes the ball from the pitcher and gives it to the shortstop, when does F6 become F1 in terms of 3.1.2. In my neck of the woods, when there is just a position swap, the coach will not make a report of this change to the umpire. If previous F6 takes the rubber and starts warming up, is he required to face a batter? Or as UMPJM points out, he isn't the pitcher till the ball is placed in play. Could the coach watch old F6 warm up, decide after 5 warmup pitches that he doesn't have the "stuff" today and then give the ball to F4?

Ween does F6 become the new F1, and under 3.1.2 he is required to face one batter? When the coach hands him the ball?, When he starts throwing warmup pitches? or when warmup is complete and the umpire puts the ball in play?

So, the core of my question is, under 3.1.2, when is a pitcher "replaced"? My OP had the additional detail that the potential new pitcher was a potential unreported sub, but since ball has not been put in play, it is nothing and the coach pulled him back off the field before the ball was made live or he was reported, so that was nothing.

The core of your OP was when is S1 in the game as pitcher:

"2006 Interps:

SITUATION 18: With a runner on first and the pitcher struggling in the top of the fifth inning, S1 comes to the mound and begins to throw his warm-up pitches. His coach announces to the plate umpire the change, who marks it on his lineup card and announces to the home scorekeeper. After only four warm-up pitches, the defensive coach decides he wants a different player to pitch. The visiting coach argues that since the ball had not yet been made live, the substitution had not been made and he can change his mind. RULING: Once the umpire-in-chief has accepted the change, marked it on his lineup and announced the change, the substitution is in effect. The substitute pitcher must pitch until the batter then at bat, or any substitute for that batter, is put out or reaches first base, or until a third out has been made. Therefore, the coach cannot change his substitute pitcher until the pitching conditions have been met. The only exception to this requirement would be if the substitute pitcher became incapacitated or guilty of flagrant unsportsmanlike conduct. If there had been no announcement of the substitution, the unreported substitution would be considered to have been made when the pitcher took his place on the pitcher’s plate and the ball was made live. (3-1-1, 3-1-2)"

I think a position swap among players in the game would be governed by when the PU noted the change on his card and announced it. Most of us would be leaving a couple of balls with the catcher and getting with the coach about what was happening. The announcement of that would probably be a point to the new pitcher while getting the attention of the offense who probably already know what is going on.


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