Attempted steal of HP.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The following play was posted on a FB group that Mark, Jr., and I follow.

Play: Bases loaded. Two outs. A count of one ball and two strikes on the Batter. R3 goes on the pitch and as he approaches HP he dives into a head first slide. The Ball enters the Strike Zone and then: a) the Ball hits R3 before R3 touches HP; b) the Ball hits R3 at the same time that R3 touches HP; and c) the Ball hits R3 after he has touched HP.

Mark, Jr., and I have discussed this play and in a, b, and c, we have an uncaught third strike.

We would like to hear opinions per NFHS, NCAA, and MLB/MiLB/OBR.

MTD, Sr.

Rich Ives

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. wrote
The following play was posted on a FB group that Mark, Jr., and I follow.

Play: Bases loaded. Two outs. A count of one ball and two strikes on the Batter. R3 goes on the pitch and as he approaches HP he dives into a head first slide. The Ball enters the Strike Zone and then: a) the Ball hits R3 before R3 touches HP; b) the Ball hits R3 at the same time that R3 touches HP; and c) the Ball hits R3 after he has touched HP.

Mark, Jr., and I have discussed this play and in a, b, and c, we have an uncaught third strike.

We would like to hear opinions per NFHS, NCAA, and MLB/MiLB/OBR.

MTD, Sr.

No opinion needed in OBR or NCAA

5.09(a )(14) With two out, a runner on third base, and two strikes on
the batter, the runner attempts to steal home base on a
legal pitch and the ball touches the runner in the batter’s
strike zone. The umpire shall call “Strike Three,” the batter
is out and the run shall not count; before two are out,
the umpire shall call “Strike Three,” the ball is dead, and
the run counts;

NCAA virtually identical

s. With two outs, a runner on third base and two strikes on the batter, the
runner attempts to steal home plate on a legal pitch and the ball hits the
runner in the batter’s strike zone. The umpire shall call “Strike three”; the
batter is out; the run shall not count. With fewer than two outs, the umpire
shall call “Strike three”; the ball is dead; the run counts.

bob jenkins

Same in FED.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Rich Ives wrote
No opinion needed in OBR or NCAA

5.09(a )(14) With two out, a runner on third base, and two strikes on
the batter, the runner attempts to steal home base on a
legal pitch and the ball touches the runner in the batter’s
strike zone. The umpire shall call “Strike Three,” the batter
is out and the run shall not count; before two are out,
the umpire shall call “Strike Three,” the ball is dead, and
the run counts;

NCAA virtually identical

s. With two outs, a runner on third base and two strikes on the batter, the
runner attempts to steal home plate on a legal pitch and the ball hits the
runner in the batter’s strike zone. The umpire shall call “Strike three”; the
batter is out; the run shall not count. With fewer than two outs, the umpire
shall call “Strike three”; the ball is dead; the run counts.

Rich:

Thanks for your prompt replay with regard to NCAA and OBR. We were discussing the play during dinner on our way home from a basketball game and did not have our baseball rules brief cases with us.

That said, what is your opinion per NFHS Rules. I was lazy about perusing the NCAA and OBR books but spent most of the good part of one hour this afternoon going through the NFHS Rules and really could not find anything with regard to a Runner making contact with a pitch.

MTD, Sr.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

bob jenkins wrote
Same in FED.

Bob:

Could you point me in the correct direction with regard to the NFHS Rules? As I said in my above post to Rich, I really could not find anything directly relating a Runner making contact with a Pitch. Throw, yes. Maybe I am just missing it.

MTD, Sr.

bob jenkins

8.3.1a

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

bob jenkins wrote
8.3.1a

Bob:

Okay. But I am not sure how that applies to the play. I can find nothing in the NFHS Rule 5 that addresses particular situation as to whether a live ball becomes a dead ball which might lead us to say that the ball is still live. But R8-S3-A1a takes us to R6-S1-A4 which in a very convoluted way would lead us to say that the ball becomes dead and all runners except the batter/runner are awarded one base, and yet the pitch is still called a strike on the batter which in this case is strike three which would then lead us to say that the runner is awarded HP and the batter is out.

Boy am I confused. Mark, Jr., is officiating tonight but we will discuss this further when he gets home. I have the night off for a change.

MTD, Sr.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Nevermind everybody. I was in the online rules book and click on case plays and low and behold is our play: NFHS Casebook Play 8.3.1 Situation 3(a), 😛. All three codes have the same ruling. Batter out, no run scores, and the inning is over.

MTD, Sr.

Rich Ives

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. wrote
Nevermind everybody. I was in the online rules book and click on case plays and low and behold is our play: NFHS Casebook Play 8.3.1 Situation 3(a), 😛. All three codes have the same ruling. Batter out, no run scores, and the inning is over.

MTD, Sr.

So what did the FB commentators have to say?

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Rich Ives wrote
So what did the FB commentators have to say?

Rich:

To be honest I really didn't follow the thread because of other things going on in my life except that I do know that the poster wanted a OBR ruling and that one person gave the same ruling you did but did not give a rules citation. When Mark, Jr., and I discussed it last night, it had been two days since I had originally read the play and had not gone back to check up on it. And since we umpire NFHS we were interested in a NFHS ruling.

MTD, Sr.

bob jenkins

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. wrote
Bob:

But R8-S3-A1a

Dots are for cases; dashes are for rules. 😉

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

bob jenkins wrote
Dots are for cases; dashes are for rules. 😉

DOH!! I am blind in one eye and cannot see out of the other. LOL!

No it makes sense.

MTD, Sr.

umpjim

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. wrote
DOH!! I am blind in one eye and cannot see out of the other. LOL!

No it makes sense.

MTD, Sr.

Off topic. Leave Facebook. Ok not all Facebook. Just dont participate in umpire discussions on Facebook.

CoachPaul

I guess I'm still trying to work out how a runner can be "off with the pitch" yet beat the ball to the plate. Sign that guy up! He's faster than lightning.
😉

Rich Ives

CoachPaul wrote
I guess I'm still trying to work out how a runner can be "off with the pitch" yet beat the ball to the plate. Sign that guy up! He's faster than lightning.
😉

It means you break with first movement or sometimes even before. That's how you steal home. Entirely possible if you get a slow reaction from the pitcher.

ozzy6900

Rich Ives wrote
It means you break with first movement or sometimes even before. That's how you steal home. Entirely possible if you get a slow reaction from the pitcher.

Absolutely and seeing as how most youth pitchers go into the wind up rather than stay in the stretch with bases loaded, it takes longer for the ball to be released so the runner has a jump on the pitcher if he goes on 1st movement.

Middleman

CoachPaul wrote
I guess I'm still trying to work out how a runner can be "off with the pitch" yet beat the ball to the plate. Sign that guy up! He's faster than lightning.
😉

Heck, Coach Paul, I'm still trying to work out how a pitch that is already in the strike zone can hit a runner who is making a head-first slide before said runner touches the plate?

john5396

Middleman wrote
Heck, Coach Paul, I'm still trying to work out how a pitch that is already in the strike zone can hit a runner who is making a head-first slide before said runner touches the plate?

His knees are bent obviously...... ;^)

BSBAL18

So less than 2 strikes is a "strike call" and runner out?

Welpe

BSBAL18 wrote
So less than 2 strikes is a "strike call" and runner out?

Fed: No. You call the pitch and the ball is dead. Each runner except the batter is awarded one base. 8-3-1a.