Pitcher throwing to unoccupied base
 

F1, a RHP, is in the set position. 2B unoccupied. R1 breaks for 2B just as F1 lifts free foot (the left foot in this case). F1 sees this but since free foot is off ground, is unable to disengage pivot foot from plate. So, without hesitating or making a move towards 1B, F1 spins clockwise, and steps and throws to 2B. Is this a balk? It is not a balk if F1 steps and throws to an unoccupied base for the purpose of making a play. OTOH, if F1's entire free foot goes behind the plate, he must deliver home - except when making a pickoff play at 2B. I cannot find how a pickoff play is defined, therefore I do not know if F1 committed a balk in this situation. Or, if some other rule governs this situation. Thanks in advance for insight.

So you have a legal spin by F1 with no start of motion home and your semantic concern is that this was not a "pickoff" play at 2B as allowed by PBUC/MLBUM interps. Given that NCAA and FED both allow "throws" to put out a runner in their rules I would not have that semantic concern in OBR and since there is no definition of pickoff I would allow the throw and not call a balk.

The issue here is...
 

2nd base is unoccupied. I'm pretty sure you have a balk here because he didn't step off.

Why do you think that? He's making a play on an advancing runner.

So what? A pitcher can't throw to an unoccupied base except for the purposes of making a play

I stand corrected. So answer me this, why does the pitcher throw to first in a first to second situation in every play like this I've ever seen? Is it just easier and less likely to commit an error?

Easier. No balk possibility.

I agree with Rich Ives in that it is extremely difficult (almost impossible) to balk to 2nd base. R1 breaking toward 2nd.... no balk here.

Spin move
 

So if R1 breaks for second early after the pitcher comes set, these threads are saying that the legal spin-move for a RHP that would happen for a normal pickoff attempt at 2nd, is legal, because he is making a play on an advancing runner, even though there is no runner. The pitcher is *not* required to stepoff before throwing to second because of the "making a play on an advancing runer".

I wonder why RHP pitchers dont use a coach in the dugout to show a runner stealing while the pitcher makes a slower leg-lift to throw home, just to see a visual sign from dugout that the runner is stealing so the RHP would initiate his spinmove for a pickoff.

Because in practice it wouldn't work very well. You might pick off a runner or two, but the pitching mechanics would be so messed up that you'd give up more than that over time.

There used to be a FED interp that ruled a balk if R1 bluffed toward second and F1 threw there, but R1 returned to first. That never made any sense.

I think you have this backwards. That (bluff and no advance) was an OBR interp, not a FED interp.

Okay. I thought that was one of Brad Rumble's um, "curious", interps.

Lefty to 1B doesnt throw when runner goes...
 

Starting to see this a lot in the youth stuff, especially with all the travel ball where kids are playing with leads, picks, etc at younger ages. Have seen a lot of guys going "early" stealing from 2B to 3B, maybe on looks, timing, etc and the P just picking directly to 3B, even though its unoccupied, never went to home and the first time I saw it, I was 100% sure it was a balk because of the unoccupied base provision, but then the follow up is making a play on a runner and if that runner is going to 3B, that is what they are doing.

The one I saw last week I think was a balk, but maybe help me out because I think its a balk. Lefty P, Runner breaks 1st move lefty when he lifts his leg to pick, he lands the foot towards first but then doesnt throw, holds it and throws to 2B where he gets the out. Never stepped off and had almost ideal one at 3B with a righty. Where he stepped to pick, runner broke and he didnt throw (didnt disengage the rubber) I thought these were balks, but could be wrong.

So, he stepped to first and didn't throw? That's a feint to first and a balk.

For the RH pitcher toward third, it depends on the rules code (whether feints to third are allowed) -- it's a balk under OBR, legal under FED and NCAA

A fake/feint to first is ALWAYS a balk. This is why pitchers typically throw to first when an R1 is breaking for second.

So the feint to 1st even though runner is going to 2b? Could a lefty in theory lift his leg to pick to 1B, recognize the early break on 1st move and turn to 2b and throw to make a play on the runner.

So lift the leg if he goes, turn it into the "flamingo" and throw to 2B, if he doesnt go, just pick to 1B?

On the pick to 3B, it was OBR, not NCAA or Fed.

Any pitcher who is in contact with the rubber MUST throw it to first, and now 3rd in OBR. Cannot feint if he steps there.

In your lefty theory, yes he can continue to second with his non pivot foot and make a PLAY on the runner or pick to first, as long as foot doesn't cross the back plane going to first.

And I wouldn't "flamingo" too long!

Yeah so tell a lefty, bring leg straight up, if they break on your first movement, then swing the leg around and throw to 2B and that is legal? If they dont move just continue the pick to 1B?

If a lefty did that, my guess is probably gets called balk 80% of time even though would be wrong.

The rules are the same for lefty/righty.

Yes but the coaching strategy is different, a lot of teams/baserunner philosophy is as soon as the lefty moves, they go. So lefty looking at 1B, lifts front leg, runner takes off on first move, the lefty seeing this could swing the leg back step towards 2B and throw there since the runner went to 2B so he is making a play on the runner.

Actually thinking about this, whats interesting is for a RHP, in the younger divisions of tourney ball, where they steal 2B on seemingly every pitch when on first a righty could in theory do something similar?

So knowing a runner is going, RHP on mound.
* RHP in stretch, left leg goes up to balance point, he swings it around and throws to 2B.
- If runner didnt steal, its a balk obviously, stepping to unoccupied base.
- If the runner is going, he is making a play on the runner?

These are basically running a pick that steps to 2B with a runner at 1B, which for years I always thought would be a balk, but with the "making a play on the runner" provision, that is potentially a strategy that comes into play and honestly at the youth level, they are gonna steal it anyway, so who cares if you guess wrong and its called a balk.

Sorry, but I didn't even read your last post.

A balk is a balk! To answer your question, yes it is legal! Same as a righty who lifts his non pivot foot and continues to second base, as long as the runner is stealing and there is a play to be made!

To answer your second question, as long as the non pivot foot doesn't cross the plane!

I think this was said before!?

For your last guess, it is just that! Prob only 50% of the time

You're not the first person to think of this. It doesn't work very well in practice.

You're welcome.

The risk in coaching a lefty to do as you suggest is that the pitcher will balk by not completing the motion in a continuous motion. The safer play is to just continue with the called pickoff to first and count on the relay getting to 2B in time.

That's stupid. Really stupid.

Well on a straight steal a lot of times, the rule of thumb is "no jump no go" and with a lefty waiting to see if they go home a lot of times results in bad jumps, which is why some teams steal with a lefty is on first movement and you see this all the way up to the bigs, where they just go when P lifts his leg either hoping to guess right or hoping to beat the exchange from pick to 1B to SS.

As for the risk of a balk, the one area I would use it is in youth ages where they are stealing, like 9U-11U travel, where the catchers rarely throw out the runners and the runners go on every pitch from 1-2. So its pretty much a given if they are gonna go, and if by some miracle they dont go and you balk? Oh well, he was likely gonna steal anyway.

If they know you are gong to go on first move you'll get picked off every time.

Are you sure you are not confusing righty pitcher with a left? Righty with a runner on first, you go on a straight steal with the left foot moving. Lefty you have to wait till the right foot goes toward the plate or you are dead, dead, dead.

Righty can step to 1B also.

Not easily.

Quite easily. Used to the normal way to pick. The jump is relatively new in the grand scheme.

You are not dead because the majority of lefties are pre-determined not reading the runner because so much of what they are doing are "called", called picks, called pitches etc and so often they will not divert from that, but you need to have some feel for what kind of pitcher this lefty is or a very common first move is after the P picks over.

* If he is a "reader" then he is not someone you would likely go first movement with as he lifts his leg not knowing whether he will go home or to 1st and reads the runner. If he is a reader you can take shorter leads, jab step a bit and force him to make many more throws over and get his focus off the hitter, which is why some coaches dont like their lefites to read.

The other HUGE component to the first move steal is who the 1B is, because in order to get that runner out, still takes a somewhat timely glove to hand exchange, clear a lane and make a good throw. If teams have a lefty pitcher with a RH slow moving not great arm 1B? Thats first move all day long.

We have a lefty pitcher, and pretty much the standard move is 1st movement steal, so we are usually very cautious about who is playing 1B when our lefty is on the bump. We actually work guys out who can make that specific exchange and throw.

So last night was coaching 1B, and was chatting with base ump, said I want to ask you something before I try this pick, and I laid out the exact scenario kind of discussed, runner at 1B, RHP on mound, lifts leg and spins back to 2B, if runner was stealing that it is not a balk because he is making a play on runner and the "unoccupied base" provision does not apply, if runner does not go, its a balk.

He said, he would call balk, that you simply cannot throw to unoccupied base, period. I said "I thought same thing up until 6 mos ago when I saw a coach lose his $100 protest over similar scenario"

His comment to me was something I couldnt quite figure out what he was trying to say, which was the play on the runner provision has something to do with time of pitch.

In OBR, if a pitcher throws to an unoccupied base because a runner fakes a steal, it is not a balk. See OBR 6.02(a)(4): It is a balk when "the pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play.... Comment: When determining whether the pitcher throws or feints a throw to an unoccupied base for the purpose of making a play, the umpire should consider whether a runner on the previous base demonstrates or otherwise creates an impression of his intent to advance to such unoccupied base."

Had discussion about this one with very experienced ump, one of the key things to my question which he mentioned is the timing. So lets say the lefty move if the Lefty raises his leg then the runner breaks, he must continue with throw to 1st because otherwise move would be considered throwing to unoccupied base since the time of the first move by the P the runner was not advancing yet, he only started to advance after the pitcher lifted his leg. Same thing with RHP, if that left foot goes up, he cant "guess" the runner is stealing and turn to 2B, if he does its a balk, unless the runner breaks before the p lifts his leg, like an early steal.

He's wrong.

Another situation....runners at 1st and 2nd and batter squares to bunt. 1st baseman charges with right handed pitcher. He attempts a pick off at 1st...at what point in relation to where the 1st baseman is located is the pitcher not considered throwing to 1st base? How far away from 1st can the 1st baseman be before the pitcher is considered not throwing directly to the base?

If he's close enough to make an immediate play on the runner, he's close enough.

My guess if he is charging in on a bunt, he is not close enough.

Its a wierd one for sure and honestly one that has a very small window of time that it would actually be applied (9U and 10U travel ball or that level of Pony? where they can lead and steal)...Im not 100% what to think. I get both sides. Because at the time you lift your leg, the runner has not gone yet, so how are you making a play on a runner who has not yet attempted to go?

He only goes AFTER your leg lifts to throw to an unoccupied base?

Watch a lefty move. He lifts his leg then steps to 1B. Legal. Go in the lift and you are dead meat.

Agree he can go to first, but if the runner breaks on the lift can he spin and go to 2B, that is the ?? The answer I got was no, that if you lift leg and runner hasnt broken at time of lift, even if he runs after you lift, you have to continue to 1B or pitch, cant turn and throw to 2B. If the runner leaves before the leg is lifted you can.

Wrong.

And in reality they just throw to 1B and F3 throws to 2B and the runner is out 98% of the time. I think people see this and think it has to be done this way.

Again, you were told wrong.

NCAA has verbiage to the effect that:

• Once the leg is lifted, F1 can't throw to the base behind him
• Once the foot crosses the rubber, F1 can't throw to the base he faces
• Once the leg starts forward, F1 must throw to home

(You can get the book online for the exact wording)

The same concept applies in all codes.

In your play, F1 is at the first bullet above -- so the opnly base he can't throw to is the one behind him.

One behind him in this case being 3b correct?

98% is pretty extreme, as I mentioned there are several factors that go into the first move lefty play. What I know most of the time is that when we are stealing 2b straight, the rule of thumb is "no jump no go" - and with LHP guys often get bad jumps trying to go straight, there are just some lefties and situations its very difficult to run...but...

If you have certain things in play:
1. Lefty with high slow deliberate pick to 1B
2. Usually a slow, not great throwing RH 1B who needs to catch, clear lane and throw. Its usually tougher for a RH1B, because the lefty is easier and sometimes almost already positioned with their throwing arm forward to be in the throwing lane to covering SS.
3. SS who doesnt break to cover at the time of the pick and is late to get over

But you are right, if these factors are not there, your gonna get gunned down pretty easily a large majority of the time.