Let me try this again. First I mess up the answer to a play, then, I post a baseball question on the basketball forum. Having a tough morning...

Bases loaded, 2 outs. BR is entitled to 1B on BALL 4. For some reason he runs to 1B, dives, and flies over the base without touching it. F2 throws down to F3 who tags BR lying on the ground past the base. Is BR OUT? Does the run count?

Run scores, BR is not out. He still has a right to 1st base, as he has not feigned or made an attempt toward 2nd base.

What about the fact that he never touched 1B?

"He still has a right to 1st base, as he has not feigned or made an attempt toward 2nd base."

OBR 6.08a (commentary)and I belive NCAA require an attempt as stated above, in order for the fielder to be put out.

Fed 8.2 Art 6. "A player who is awarded first base on a base on balls does not have this right.

I do not know the answer, but I'll take a stab at it.

We know that if the BR rounds first and is tagged out, the runner on 3B still has the right to score.

However, if the BR is put out before he reaches 1B (say, by entering DBT), then no runs can score. In another example, should ball 4 get away from the catcher and all runners and the BR advance two bases, if the BR missed 1B and the appeal was upheld, no runs could score.

But in the play in question, the runner doesn't miss 1B and proceed to 2B. He dives over the base and misses it. He's still liable to be tagged out on appeal (but it seems like the kind of play where the defense could not simply touch 1B and appeal). I would say that since BR never reached 1B safely, no run could score.

On the other hand, there is some dispute concerning whether the out at 2B is considered a force out in the play where the runner overslides on a force play, beats the throw, but misses the bag and is tagged out. nine01c's play is somewhat similar to that one. In terms of whether the out would nullify a run, doesn't PBUC call that play one way and J/R or somebody call it the other way?

So in nine01c's play, I'll say no run. If I'm right, I'm going to try out for the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals.

If you follow the interps / rules (I think some make it explicit?) that BR is allowed to overrun first on a walk, then BR is safe on the tag, but can be appealed for an out. If the appeal is made, no run scores.

If you follow the interps / rules (e.g., FED) that BR is not allowed to overrun first, then he's out on the tag, but the run scores. If the defense now makes a valid appeal, the run doesn't score.

Answer: OBR The (dumb) runner is OUT, but the run scores.
See 7.04(b) A runner forced to advance without liability to be put out may advance past the base to which he is entitled only at his peril. If such a runner, forced to advance, is put out for the third out before a preceding runner, also forced to advance, touches home plate, the run shall score.

Then there is a similar play described, with an explaination. Basically, it is not considered a force out.

Since this play occured at 1B, whether the code allows the BR to pass 1B on a base on balls or not, does not protect him. He never touched 1B in the first place, so the tag is an appeal that he missed the bag.

Ok, I have to take issue with your deductive process here, nine01c.

The batter-runner is NEVER "forced", within the meaning of the rules, at 1st base. Why? Because he has not yet occupied any base to be "forced" to vacate by reason of his becoming a runner. That is why the rules specifically contain OBR 6.05(j) and OBR 4.09(a)Exception(1) - to overcome the dilemma that the BR isn't actually "forced" at 1st base.

Nevertheless, your citation from OBR 7.04(b)Comment and the following explanatory Play certainly <i>do</i> apply to R3 in certain circumstances. <b>IF</b> the tag out on the BR at 1st base is adjudged a timing play, then R3's <b>run scores</b> under 7.04(b)Comment and Play. However, <b>IF</b> the umpire adjudges the tag was an unmistakable act of appeal, then the <b>run does not score</b> under OBR 4.09(a) Exception(1).

Hope this helps

Cheers

Warren: Please clarify: If the situation was the same except that R1 is the one tagged out (after overstepping 2B), or R2 is the one tagged out (after overstepping 3B),
would the ruling be the same? Is there a different ruling if it is the BR called out after missing 1B (that he is entitled to after the base on balls)? This is different than a batted ball.

If the ruling is the same for any runner, then 7.04(b) clearly states that the run scores (even if R3 hasn't reached home plate yet). It gives the play above with R1 being the tagged-out runner at 2B, and justifies WHY the run scores.

Are you saying that the rule is different for the BR? Or, are you saying that OBR is wrong in it's explanation of this play?

Niether.

We're saying that your interpretation of what you are reading is wrong.

Play: 2 outs, bases loaded, walk.

If any runner *touches* the next base and advances beyond it and is put out, the run scores. That's the play in the book.

If a runner advances past a base, he's assumed to have touched it, unless and until an appeal is made.

So, if R2 touches third and advances past it, the run scores.

If R2 misses third and advances past it and is tagged out, the run scores. This is (for now) the same play.

If the defense appeals the miss, it's now a force out, and no run scores.

The same is true of BR at first (with the technical exception of not being "forced").

Bob Jenkins is correct in his analysis, BUT the rules ARE different for runners who miss 1st base (overrun) and home plate vs runners who miss 1st base (rounded), 2nd and 3rd base.

Why? Because both 1st base and home plate can legally be overrun or overwalked without the runner necessarily being in jeopardy of an off-base out - see OBR 7.08(c) Exception. There can be no other reason to tag those runners except for an appeal that they missed the base in passing. Overrunning of either base is permitted, even on a base on balls award.

OTOH, the tag of any runner who is past 1st base (rounded), 2nd or 3rd is in jeopardy of an off-base out under OBR 7.08(c) BUT any tag attempt might legitimately be seen as <b><i>either</i></b> a simple off-base tag out <b><i>or</b></i> an appeal play. Runners may not legally overrun or overwalk 2nd or 3rd base, or 1st base (rounded), without being in jeopardy of an off-base out.

That dilemma is why Jaksa-Roder came up with the concept of Relaxed vs Unrelaxed action. Since most umpires cannot easily tell whether a tag during Unrelaxed action at 1st base (rounded), 2nd or 3rd base is an "unmistakable act" of appeal vs an off-base tag play, they suggested that umpires simply ignore the possiblity of an appeal during Unrelaxed action at those bases and call the result of the tag attempt on its merits. The defense may subsequently appeal any miss of the base during later Relaxed action, in order to gain the advantage of a force out.

Hope this helps

Cheers

[Edited by Warren Willson on Sep 17th, 2003 at 11:15 AM]