avoiding 4-on-5

[jayedgarwho]

A coach writing here -- as the post count, and probably much else, makes obvious. Never earned a dime with a whistle, and simply want information, not a fight. While I think our young game officials may have gotten this one wrong this weekend, nobody had a NFHS rulebook on site and so we were all guessing. Probably a simple question for this group.

Summer tournament, NFHS rules apply, 9th grade boys. We have seven players dressed. Tie game, two minutes left, our P6 and P7 each have been DQ'd with five fouls. Our P5 twists a knee and is moving very gingerly -- he can hop around a bit, but clearly this is nothing he is going to walk off.

The ruling was, if we remove him from the game, we have to play four-on-five. He wants to stay, and I swallow hard and agree to leave him in (and luckily, by the x-rays, this decision did not make anything worse).

I suggested at the time (without knowing for sure) that we should have been allowed to sub for him with a DQ'd player and take a tech every time that DQ'd player committed a foul -- just as if D5 was leaving the game due to five fouls.

These particular officials weren't agreeing, even, that this would be the rule if he had picked up a foul DQ rather than a possible ACL injury. They suggested that it would be 4-on-5 then as well. So plainly we weren't getting anywhere on our argument in the injury scenario.

What is the rule in the injury scenario? Can we replace him with a DQ'd player, and face the consequences? Which are? (The other coach was suggesting that even if we could do it it would be a tech more often than when the DQ'd player committed a foul.) If we could replace him, who gets to choose whether D6 or D7 comes in?

D5 had three personals at the time. If they were right that he could not leave for injury and be replaced, could we have had him try to limp over and commit two fouls? Or would that be pointless because the rule is that the last DQ'd player is the one who needs to stay in the game for 5-on-5?

My 2004-05 rulebook got washed away and I was thriftily waiting for the new edition. My mistake.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by jayedgarwho
What is the rule in the injury scenario? Can we replace him with a DQ'd player, and face the consequences? Which are? (The other coach was suggesting that even if we could do it it would be a tech more often than when the DQ'd player committed a foul.) If we could replace him, who gets to choose whether D6 or D7 comes in?

You cannot replace a DQ'd player for an injured player. The official was right (as usual). You have to play 5 on 4 or until the officials feel that you cannot win the game any more.

Peace

[Love this Game]

Once you have been DQ you cannot re-enter the game. For any reason. I have done a game when the game ended up 5players to 3players.

But there is no rule that allows you to sub in a DQ player for anone!!

[Dan_ref]

Coach, the officials at your game got it right, by the book. In fact this sitch (or close to it) is in the case book somewhere.

DQ'ed means DQ'ed, they can't come back.

However....9th grade game, it might have been nice if they would have gone to the other coach & asked if one of your DQ'ed players could have come back in. This is NOT by the book, but sometimes it's done in rec leagues.

[drothamel]

By rule, a disqualified player cannot re-enter for any reason. If I am not mistaken, the penalty for a disqualified player re-entering the game is a direct technical foul against the head coach. I thought this was a rule change a year or two ago because the rules committee decided that the head coach should know whether or not his player has been disqualified.

It's just one of those tough situations that tends to occur during the summer.

[ChuckElias]

Coach, as happens very often, you're thinking of the NBA rule on this subject. NBA rule 3-1b: "b. In the event that there are only five eligible players remaining and one of these players is injured and must leave the game or is ejected, he must be replaced by the last player who was disqualified by reason of receiving six personal fouls. Each subsequent requirement to replace an injured or ejected player will be treated in this inverse order. Any such re-entry into a game by a disqualified player shall be penalized by a technical foul."

As others have already pointed out, this is NOT the high school or college rule. But you're not completely out of your mind, either

[Camron Rust]

While you "could" put the DQ'd player back in (if you could sneak the player into the game), it would be a T the moment the ref handed the ball to someone for the throwin or FT. (Participating after being DQ'd). Hardly going to help you at all.

[rainmaker]

Coach, what would have been more acceptable would be to find a younger sister or best friend from the stands, who could put on a jersey and sub in. Even by the strictest rules, this would be a single T for adding a player to the roster (okay, and possibly a T for changing the jersey in the gym area). But the opposing coach and the refs might let you get away without that, if they're feeling very "summer league" minded.

[jayedgarwho]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Coach, what would have been more acceptable would be to find a younger sister or best friend from the stands, who could put on a jersey and sub in. Even by the strictest rules, this would be a single T for adding a player to the roster (okay, and possibly a T for changing the jersey in the gym area). But the opposing coach and the refs might let you get away without that, if they're feeling very "summer league" minded.

That's not so far off, as the injured player's twin brother was driven 50 miles to suit up for us the next day.

(Fraternal twins. A much better story, I know, if they are identical, and if the brother happened to be in the stands for the first game.)

Thanks for the friendly and informative responses. Even the opposing coach was closer to correct than I was. The young crew was right on the money -- with more experience they'll probably project more certainty about it.

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
While you "could" put the DQ'd player back in (if you could sneak the player into the game), it would be a T the moment the ref handed the ball to someone for the throwin or FT. (Participating after being DQ'd). Hardly going to help you at all.

And I belielve it would be a direct against the coach.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by jayedgarwho

That's not so far off, as the injured player's twin brother was driven 50 miles to suit up for us the next day.

(Fraternal twins. A much better story, I know, if they are identical, and if the brother happened to be in the stands for the first game.)

You said it was a boys' game, and I told you to find a sister for a sub. Sorry, it was my own myopia that caused this mistake. I forget, sometimes, that boys even play basketball.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by rainmaker
You said it was a boys' game, and I told you to find a sister for a sub. Sorry, it was my own myopia that caused this mistake. I forget, sometimes, that boys even play basketball.

More like presbyopia.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by jayedgarwho



That's not so far off, as the injured player's twin brother was driven 50 miles to suit up for us the next day.

(Fraternal twins. A much better story, I know, if they are identical, and if the brother happened to be in the stands for the first game.)

Few weeks ago I worked a tourney that had some college coaches in the stands. Near the end we were lined up for free throws and I quietly commented to 1 kid that I thought he had a pretty good game and wished him luck. The kid pointed at himself and said "Who? Me??! I just came in." I said "Yeah, you're number 5, right?" He then told me number 5 was his twin brother.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

More like presbyopia.

Oooooooo. New word. Presbyopia. Hadda go put on my glasses and look that one up. When I did, I found that you just dumped all over ol' Juulie.

Good job!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Oooooooo. New word. Presbyopia. Hadda go put on my glasses and look that one up. When I did, I found that you just dumped all over ol' Juulie.

Good job!

Why? What's wrong with being a presby-terian?