Who gets the ball?

[walter]

Had this happen in a game the other night and my partner and I disagreed so I thought I'd bring it here. A1 in the backcourt attempts a pass to A2 who is in the frontcourt. In attempting to steal the pass, B1 and B2 get to the ball at the same time and violently collide with each other. B2 falls and bangs his head hard on the floor. The ball, having deflected off of the two players, is bouncing freely when my partner blows the whistle because of the apparent injury one or both players. After the players are attended to (B1 & B2 left the game and did not return), my partner (the "R") says to me that we will go to the arrow to put the ball back in play. I stated (and still believe) that since A's team control had not ended, team A should get the ball back at a designated spot. What do you think? I just want to make sure I get it right if it happens again.

[thumpferee]

Originally posted by walter
Had this happen in a game the other night and my partner and I disagreed so I thought I'd bring it here. A1 in the backcourt attempts a pass to A2 who is in the frontcourt. In attempting to steal the pass, B1 and B2 get to the ball at the same time and violently collide with each other. B2 falls and bangs his head hard on the floor. The ball, having deflected off of the two players, is bouncing freely when my partner blows the whistle because of the apparent injury one or both players. After the players are attended to (B1 & B2 left the game and did not return), my partner (the "R") says to me that we will go to the arrow to put the ball back in play. I stated (and still believe) that since A's team control had not ended, team A should get the ball back at a designated spot. What do you think? I just want to make sure I get it right if it happens again.

You stated the ball is bouncing freely, that says no control by either team. Go with the arrow.

[walter]

So you are saying that team control for A ended? When?

[williebfree]

What would you recommend if the ball had rolled out of bounds? According to your logic the ball should be awarded to Team B, because Team A was the last to have team control.

You may want to review Rule 4-12 Control, Player and Team (Page 30, NFHS) and section 15 Dribble(Page 31, NFHS).

Based on what you have stated, I believe most officials will rule this is a "loose ball." Therefore, the AP arrow should be used to determine who is awarded the possession.

Just hindsight observations:
Realizing it is truly a judgement call, was it necessary to whistle the play dead prior to either team gaining possession?





[Edited by williebfree on Jan 17th, 2005 at 10:53 AM]

[SteveM]

Walter,

My call would be based upon these facts as I see them in your situation:

1) Team control was still with A, A1 passing to A2 based upon 4-12-2 which states team control exists between passing teammates when the ball is live.

2) B1 & B2 never gained player control which would have ended A1's team control using 4-12-3 which states team control would end if an opponent secures control.

3) Had the ball gone oob then of course it's A's ball due to the obvious violaton on either B1 or B2 for causing the ball to go OOB.

My call is A's ball and POI.

[Mark Padgett]

Steve is right on the money. There was still team control by team A. If the ball had gone OOB off team B, it's still A's ball.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by williebfree
What would you recommend if the ball had rolled out of bounds? According to your logic the ball should be awarded to Team B, because Team A was the last to have team control.

Team control has nothing to do with an OOB situation.

You may want to review Rule 4-12 Control, Player and Team (Page 30, NFHS) and section 15 Dribble(Page 31, NFHS).

Good idea ...

A team is in control when .... yep, we have that.

Team contro continues until .... nope, none of that happened, so A is still in control.

Based on what you have stated, I believe most officials will rule this is a "loose ball." Therefore, the AP arrow should be used to determine who is awarded the possession.

There's no such thing as a "loose ball" in FED. We did have an "accidental whistle" as in 7.5.4 AAward the ball to the team in control -- that's still A.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by williebfree
Based on what you have stated, I believe most officials will rule this is a "loose ball." [Edited by williebfree on Jan 17th, 2005 at 10:53 AM]

First of all, I don't agree that "most officials" would rule this a "loose ball" (I assume you mean a live ball inbounds with no team having team control).

Second, if "most officials" would rule this way, then "most officials" would be wrong.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by thumpferee
You stated the ball is bouncing freely, that says no control by either team. Go with the arrow.

Bouncing freely has nothing to do with it, thump. Team A has team control of the ball until they shoot it, it becomes dead, or it's stolen by Team B. Team B never possessed the ball, it's A's ball.

One thing your partner could do is hold his whistle a bit longer. Sometimes these things happen on a rebound. I try to hold the whistle until someone gains position.. 99% of the time, the players are not severely injured. A couple of seconds is not going to mater.

[thumpferee]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Bouncing freely has nothing to do with it, thump. Team A has team control of the ball until they shoot it, it becomes dead, or it's stolen by Team B. Team B never possessed the ball, it's A's ball.

One thing your partner could do is hold his whistle a bit longer. Sometimes these things happen on a rebound. I try to hold the whistle until someone gains position.. 99% of the time, the players are not severely injured. A couple of seconds is not going to mater.

Yeh, I hear ya BBR. I was going to post my recant after reviewing the rule which Steve did.

So, during an interrupted in the front court, we can still have a 3 second call because of team control?

Team B deflects the ball in this situation but team A still had team control, if ball was still in the backcourt with no whistle, are we still continuing to count 10 second in the back court?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by thumpferee
So, during an interrupted in the front court, we can still have a 3 second call because of team control?

Team B deflects the ball in this situation but team A still had team control, if ball was still in the backcourt with no whistle, are we still continuing to count 10 second in the back court?

Yes, 3 seconds can still be called.

Yes, the 10 second count continues.

[thumpferee]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Yes, 3 seconds can still be called.

Yes, the 10 second count continues.

Yeh, makes sense. I don't know what I was thinkin.

I was referring to Case play 9.8 D

Thanks.

[paxsonref]

Unless the injury was severe, could you have waited 3 seconds for a team to control the ball, then blow the whistle? Makes things much easier that way.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by walter
Had this happen in a game the other night and my partner and I disagreed so I thought I'd bring it here. A1 in the backcourt attempts a pass to A2 who is in the frontcourt. In attempting to steal the pass, B1 and B2 get to the ball at the same time and violently collide with each other. B2 falls and bangs his head hard on the floor. The ball, having deflected off of the two players, is bouncing freely when my partner blows the whistle because of the apparent injury one or both players. After the players are attended to (B1 & B2 left the game and did not return), my partner (the "R") says to me that we will go to the arrow to put the ball back in play. I stated (and still believe) that since A's team control had not ended, team A should get the ball back at a designated spot. What do you think? I just want to make sure I get it right if it happens again.

Your partner should have waited until either the ball went out of bounds or a player controled the ball before he blew his whistle. Would have avoided the problem.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by paxsonref
Unless the injury was severe, could you have waited 3 seconds for a team to control the ball, then blow the whistle? Makes things much easier that way.

Originally posted by gordon30307
Your partner should have waited until either the ball went out of bounds or a player controled the ball before he blew his whistle. Would have avoided the problem.

Maybe you guys didn't read the rest of the thread. It's not easier if you wait for a player to gain control. And there is no problem by not waiting for a player to gain control.

Since there is still team control when the whistle blows, the ball is awarded to the team that had control at the time of the whistle. What could be easier?