Player not in book

[Bart Tyson]

HS rules, Player enters, then subs out. Horn, player not in the book. Coach says I'm not going to play her again. Do we make the book correct?

[bigwhistle]

nope

[Damian]

Should have noticed when she came in. Then it would be a T. Too late now unless she comes back in.

[DJ]

Bigwhistle, man of few words!

[Bart Tyson]

Some states have linits on the number of quarters a player can play. Does the NF address this issue? And is the reason we don't have to make the book correct because the NF doesn't address the issue?

[zebraman]

Bart,

Two different issues: The NF doesn't address the number of quarters a kid can play in a day. It's out of our jurisdiction. That's an AD/league issue.

As far as fixing the book... if the coach wanted to put the player back in, the book would have to be fixed and a T issued. If the coach doesn't want to put the player back in, the "mistake" can stay in the book without penalty.

Z

[Bart Tyson]

Sooo, the rule book doesn't say anything about a player who plays must be in the book? Are you sure?

[cmathews]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
Sooo, the rule book doesn't say anything about a player who plays must be in the book? Are you sure?

Yes it most definitely says they must be in the book, but it goes on to say that the only time it can be penalized is while the player is participating, or coming in. Once they are gone from the game it is too late to penalize this particular infraction. It also says that the coach must mark his 5 starters. In the second minute of the first quarter you call a foul on A34, no problem. The scorer while marking the foul on A34 calls you over to say that the listed starters are A12, A22, A32, A44 and A54. It is now too late to penalize the incorrect starting line up...

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
HS rules, Player enters, then subs out. Horn, player not in the book. Coach says I'm not going to play her again. Do we make the book correct?

This is usually dangerous ground on this board, but I'm going to disagree with all of the responses so far. It is not too late to penalize this offense after the team member leaves the game. Here's why:

I believe that once a team member participates in the game they must be entered into the scorebook.
I can point out two items in the NFHS books to back this:

1. According to 2-11-1 the scorer must "Keep a record or the names and numbers of players who are to start the game and of all substitutes who enter the game."

2. 3.2.2 situation C Ruling: "Number 14 became a player when the ball became live, however, since his or her name and number must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A.

Therefore, since this team member played the scorer must now enter his/her name and number into the book (the required record) and at the time this is done is the proper time to charge a technical foul to this team. If the ball is put back into play and becomes live again after the change is made to the book without the technical foul being charged, then it is too late to penalize. This is all according to 10-1-2b,c,d and the penalty paragraph at the end of 10-1. It states "(Arts. 1, 2b, c, d) Penalized when they occur." This means when THE CHANGE IS MADE, not when the player is in the game.

This is not to be confused with 10-1-6 (having more than five participating), 10-3-1 (participate after changing number and not reporting it to the scorer and an official), or 10-3-2 (wear an illegal number, shirt, or pants), which are "penalized if discovered while being violated" for the first two and "penalized one time if discovered prior to [the] ball becoming live for each designated starter and each substitue who enters."

The crux of the matter is that once the team member becomes a player the scorer must properly record their name and number, if the scorebook must be changed because either the name or the number is incorrect or absent that is a team technical foul. 10-1-2b,c,d

In the play given, the scorer is clearly not doing his job of recording this information for each team member. It should have been noticed earlier, but just because it was not, does not mean, in this particular case, that the team escapes the penalty.

[cmathews]

Nevadaref,
Good points. I don't know if I agree with the interp about when it is "discovered" but you certainly have valid arguments. In the original post I am not sure the player ever participated. Maybe the coach sent the kid in, realized what could happen and took them back out before the ball became live....If that were the case even with your interp I would not T them up..I can't find my case book, but I would like to look at it before I jump on board your bandwagon......but right now I could be convinced...

[Nevadaref]

Also check out page 14 in the Simplified and Illustrated. The text at the bottom makes it clear that if the player with the wrong number (or for our case no name or number at all) does not enter, then no change must be made to the book and hence no T. On the flip side, one can logically deduce that if the player does participate then a change to the book is necessary and a T is mandatory.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Also check out page 14 in the Simplified and Illustrated. The text at the bottom makes it clear that if the player with the wrong number (or for our case no name or number at all) does not enter, then no change must be made to the book and hence no T. On the flip side, one can logically deduce that if the player does participate then a change to the book is necessary and a T is mandatory.

Your conclusion doesn't follow logically. (I'm not saying that your conclusion is wrong, just that you can't use the "if the player doesn't enter, no T" wording to conclude "if the player does enter and leave w/ no points or fouls, then T")

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Your conclusion doesn't follow logically. (I'm not saying that your conclusion is wrong, just that you can't use the "if the player doesn't enter, no T" wording to conclude "if the player does enter and leave w/ no points or fouls, then T")

Bob, I'll agree with that. I was trying to add to the reasoning in my earlier post, but it will just have to stand on its own.

[Larks]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
HS rules, Player enters, then subs out. Horn, player not in the book. Coach says I'm not going to play her again. Do we make the book correct?

Her's my question....did the ball become live?

No...I got nothin. Yes...sticky because I didnt catch her "dirty". I think Nevadaref's post is a strong case for a tech.