Legal Guarding Position

Rich

This is the usual thread on this topic -- one that will not change how anyone calls these plays.

Pantherdreams

BigT wrote
When is the defense too late to take a charge? After he picks up his dribble or when it is too late for him to reasonably avoid the defender who has set up LGP?

Defense is too late to take a charge if they cannot meet guidelines for establishing LGP.

Dribbler is not entitled to time and space so in theory they defense could land on two feet with their chest millimeters from the driving player (assuming they landed in their own space and not the into the offensive players cylinder) get hit and have it be PC.

The shooter is a little different depending on your rule set and interps. basically LGP must be established before a certain point on an air born shooter generally either before they leave the floor or before their upward motion starts depending on your rule set. Players cannot move to maintain LGP the same way once the player is airborne.

BillyMac

After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
a. The guard may have one or both feet on the playing court or be airborne,
provided he/she has inbound status.
b. The guard is not required to continue facing the opponent.
c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it
is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
d. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.
e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.

BigCat

Rich is right. You will get different answers. Here's what I do..,If the offensive player has such a head of steam that he's going to run defense over regardless then I will call charge. The plays that would have been nothing if he stays up I will have nothing or if it causes people to trip I will call a blocking foul.

There are things in rules I question based on how game is played and coached. As a coach and player, if I or my kid doesn't stay in for contact, falls early, then I don't expect a charge call. I don't know a single coach who will say he's entitled to fall early. That's something a rule maker came up with. That's my opinion. As the coach of the defense I'll sure take it but I don't expect it. I'm not sure who comes up with some of these rules.

And moving backward is different than falling early. Moving backward entire body goes back.

SNIPERBBB

BigCat wrote
Rich is right. You will get different answers. Here's what I do..,If the offensive player has such a head of steam that he's going to run defense over regardless then I will call charge. The plays that would have been nothing if he stays up I will have nothing or if it causes people to trip I will call a blocking foul.

There are things in rules I question based on how game is played and coached. As a coach and player, if I or my kid doesn't stay in for contact, falls early, then I don't expect a charge call. I don't know a single coach who will say he's entitled to fall early. That's something a rule maker came up with. That's my opinion. As the coach of the defense I'll sure take it but I don't expect it. I'm not sure who comes up with some of these rules.

And moving backward is different than falling early. Moving backward entire body goes back.

Unless you have an area where officials that wont call a charge if a kid was set and the ball handler started from the division line, any coach that teaches players to take a charge wants that call.

Natural reaction of a person about to take a hit is to either turn away or start to fall, it reduces force of contact. That's why the rule is there.

BigCat

SNIPERBBB wrote
Unless you have an area where officials that wont call a charge if a kid was set and the ball handler started from the division line, any coach that teaches players to take a charge wants that call.

Natural reaction of a person about to take a hit is to either turn away or start to fall, it reduces force of contact. That's why the rule is there.

Sorry, I just don't agree. I do not know one coach on the planet who coaches it's ok to fall early. I can live with turning away. Falling early is an entirely different animal. And I promise you it is not safer. When player takes hit he bounces away. When he falls early it's a guarantee the offense will fall on top of him. Chances good he Bounce his head off floor. Been there done that....which may very well explain my posts....

SNIPERBBB

I didnt say they teach to fall away early. I said its the natural reaction.

BigCat

SNIPERBBB wrote
I didnt say they teach to fall away early. I said its the natural reaction.

It is a very natural reaction. I read your post to say coaches want that call. I guess I'll say they want every call. But they don't expect getting that call if their player falls down early. Games just never been played that way. Falling down early is a conversation referees have here. Coaches teach kids to take contact.

Rich

As a coach I don't want my player falling early. Much more likely to get landed on and more likely to get pinned with a blocking foul.

[deleted]

Really depends on the situation but I generally call this a block as the falling players legs trip the opponent.

Kansas Ref

BigCat wrote
There are things in rules I question based on how game is played and coached. As a coach and player, if I or my kid doesn't stay in for contact, falls early, then I don't expect a charge call. I don't know a single coach who will say he's entitled to fall early. That's something a rule maker came up with. That's my opinion. As the coach of the defense I'll sure take it but I don't expect it. I'm not sure who comes up with some of these rules.

And moving backward is different than falling early. Moving backward entire body goes back.

I agree there is a distinction betw falling early and moving backwards; furthermore, no coach in his right mind would teach their defenders to "fall early"--despite the theoretical correctness of action with regard to LGP status. I addition to the high potential for head injury [which is results from A1's acceleration into a B1 that is ''pulling'' the contact] there is also the toughness factor that players must develop by conditioning themselves to contact. I agree, there are a few rules that seem as though they were 'made in a vacuum'.

BigCat

AremRed wrote
Really depends on the situation but I generally call this a block as the falling players legs trip the opponent.

Again, if the offense has a head of steam and would have killed him anyway I will call the charge. He's actually going to take more pain falling early.
The plays where offense comes in and jumps off two feet, defender starts fall, and offense comes down and trips are ones I call block. If he stays up no one goes to floor. I consider it a trip.

SNIPERBBB

Rich wrote
As a coach I don't want my player falling early. Much more likely to get landed on and more likely to get pinned with a blocking foul.

I wouldnt teach it either, because I wouldnt want to give any excuse for an official to no-call or call a block.

Kansas Ref

SNIPERBBB wrote
I wouldnt teach it either, because I wouldnt want to give any excuse for an official to no-call or call a block.

are you implying that the ref won't make the correct call?

BigCat

SNIPERBBB wrote
I wouldnt teach it either, because I wouldnt want to give any excuse for an official to no-call or call a block.

You shouldn't want to teach it because you'll get your kid hurt. You should think more about them than an official's call. What you say is an "excuse" I say is making kid play the game it's always been played and expected to play. Again, the only people talking about falling early being ok are referees. Just never enters coach/player thinking.

Rich

Kansas Ref wrote
are you implying that the ref won't make the correct call?

I'm implying that falling back early makes it more likely I'll no call the play, yes.

We're in the sales profession as officials. Make a call harder for me to sell, I may just not make it.

SNIPERBBB

Kansas Ref wrote
are you implying that the ref won't make the correct call?

Yes.

I dont know what it is, and this is starting to change, but for years in this area if you made a charge call, you may as well have two heads. Block is/was regarded as the safe call.

Used to work with some guys that if they did make a charge call, I had a hard time keeping the whistle in my mouth from my jaw dropping.

BigCat

SNIPERBBB wrote
Yes.

I dont know what it is, and this is starting to change, but for years in this area if you made a charge call, you may as well have two heads. Block is/was regarded as the safe call.

Used to work with some guys that if they did make a charge call, I had a hard time keeping the whistle in my mouth from my jaw dropping.

You know Sniper, I tell people that I'm not going to split hairs on block charge. I know how hard it is to get a kid to hang in there. I will call the charge for that reason and to tell offense out of control is not going to end well. I do need to see the contact. If it's there I'll reward the kid. I just don't/can't do it for falling early unless I know he'd have been creamed anyway.

I understand it's a natural reflex...I just used to get an ass chewin for it. (There's the truth of it. Deep seated anguish)&#55357;&#56870;

justacoach

AremRed wrote
Really depends on the situation but I generally call this a block as the falling players legs trip the opponent.

Did the defender's legs establish and maintain LGP?
If so, I got a PC foul as far as NFHS goes.

SNIPERBBB

I think we're discussing different terms.