Reference for Throwing Ball off Own Backboard

Camron Rust

Nevadaref wrote
I'm going to disagree with that part because of 9.5 Situation.

Nothing in 9.5 indicates or implies that the player is granted a new dribble, just that trowing it off the board and catching (which is not a dribble) it is legal.

I don't see any thing that suggests the dribble rules are suspended.

bob jenkins

We've had this discussion multiple times in the past -- with the same (non-) results.

I think NFHS changed that case play a number of years ago -- but it didn't help.

SSDD.

just another ref

Nevadaref wrote
Break-away situation. Player alone decides to show off. He tosses the ball off the backboard, then runs and jumps to grab the ball and dunk it.

The throwing of the ball off the backboard is clearly not an attempt to score, but it is legal because of Case play 9.5

Camron Rust wrote
Nothing in 9.5 indicates or implies that the player is granted a new dribble, just that trowing it off the board and catching (which is not a dribble) it is legal.

I don't any thing that suggests the dribble rules are suspended.

If 9.5 doesn't mean the slate is clear and he's free to do anything, then wouldn't the dunk play be traveling?

Camron Rust

just another ref wrote
If 9.5 doesn't mean the slate is clear and he's free to do anything, then wouldn't the dunk play be traveling?

No.

just another ref

Camron Rust wrote
No.

Why not? He threw the ball, ran and caught it again.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Freddy wrote
NFHS 4-5-1: "A team's own basket is the one into which its players try to throw or tap the ball." Accordingly, the team's "own backboard" would be that to which said basket is attached.
This is a valid question, because, as it has been noted here before, I think FIBA's terminology is reversed from this. Anybody who speaks FIBA available to verify that?

Freddy:

NFHS, NCAA Men's/Women's, NBA/WNBA: A player attempts to score in his team's basket.

FIBA: A player attempts to score in his opponent's basket.

MTD, Sr.

Camron Rust

just another ref wrote
Why not? He threw the ball, ran and caught it again.

He didn't move his pivot foot while holding the ball. He didn't start a dribble after lifting the pivot foot. He let the ball hit what is treated the same as the floor after throwing the ball into the air...except that it is expressly not considered a dribble.

What part of the travel rule was broken?

BillyMac

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; and catches the ball. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used.

I just noticed that 9.5 SITUATION doesn't indicate whether, or not, the player in question moves his pivot foot while the ball is bouncing of his own backboard. It doesn't say that he can. It doesn't say that he can't.

This situation is way too open ended.

just another ref

Camron Rust wrote
He didn't move his pivot foot while holding the ball. He didn't start a dribble after lifting the pivot foot. He let the ball hit what is treated the same as the floor after throwing the ball into the air...except that it is expressly not considered a dribble.

What part of the travel rule was broken?

4-44-3: After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot the pivot foot may be lifted but not returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal .

Throwing the ball against the board in this case, according to you, apparently is neither of these.

4.44.3 C b: A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it.
tr
Ruling: Since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal.

asdf

just another ref wrote
4-44-3: After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot the pivot foot may be lifted but not returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or dribble.

Throwing the ball against the board in this case, according to you, apparently is neither of these.

4.44.3 C b: A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it.

Ruling: Since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal.

apples and oranges comparison

just another ref

asdf wrote
apples and oranges comparison

Agree, but this play is an apple, and everything else is an orange.

BigCat

Camron Rust wrote
He didn't move his pivot foot while holding the ball. He didn't start a dribble after lifting the pivot foot. He let the ball hit what is treated the same as the floor after throwing the ball into the air...except that it is expressly not considered a dribble.

What part of the travel rule was broken?

A player's own backboard has not ever and is not the same as a ball hitting the floor. The opponent's backboard, and only the opponent's, is considered same as hitting floor. 9. 5 is an expansion of offensive player's rights etc. When they say it is ok to throw the ball off their own backboard, run and catch it because it is a teams "own equipment" i view that the same as saying it is like throwing it off another player or like a try. The fact that the 9.5 play doesnt include A1 catching and then dribbling the ball doesnt affect my opinion. frankly, the rules dont support the "own equipment" language in the play so i wouldnt cite the play as evidence that a player cant dribble after catching it. That is reading too much into the play rules.

We wont agree but if im going to allow someone to end dribble throw the ball off backboard, run and get it... im going to allow him to dribble it again if he does.

Camron Rust

just another ref wrote
4-44-3: After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot the pivot foot may be lifted but not returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or dribble.

Throwing the ball against the board in this case, according to you, apparently is neither of these.

First, you have a typo, you meant try of goal, not dribble in your quote.

Then you forgot this fundamental part of the travel rule:

Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball. The limits on foot movements are as follows:

If the player is not holding the ball when the feet are moved, the article you cite is not applicable nor are any of the other articles in the traveling section.

Camron Rust

BigCat wrote
A player's own backboard has not ever and is not the same as a ball hitting the floor. The opponent's backboard, and only the opponent's, is considered same as hitting floor.

You might wish to check rule 4-4-5:

A ball which touches the front faces or edges of the backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds; see also 4-15-1.

Then 4-15-1 that says the ball touching your own board is not a dribble but doesn't remove the fact that it otherwise considered the same as touching the floor.

... It is not a part of a dribble when the ball touches a player’s own backboard.

Why the distinction? I think it is more historic than anything, perhaps hearkening back to the time when jump balls were held in the circle at each FT line (yes, they were once complete circles). A tapped jump ball hitting the backboard would have ended the jump ball restrictions. I can't think of any other reason it would matter aside from making it clear that it is still inbounds even though it is mounted on an OOB surface.

BigCat

Camron Rust wrote
You might wish to check rule 4-4-5:

Then 4-15-1 that says the ball touching your own board is not a dribble but doesn't remove the fact that it otherwise considered the same as touching the floor.

Why the distinction? I think it is more historic than anything, perhaps hearkening back to the time when jump balls were held in the circle at each FT line (yes, they were once complete circles). A tapped jump ball hitting the backboard would have ended the jump ball restrictions. I can't think of any other reason it would matter aside from making it clear that it is still inbounds even thought it is mounted on an OOB surface.

Down to 8 lives left, maybe down to 6 after that mess.... I was wrongly thinking you were saying throwin off own backboard was considered dribble if it wasnt a try and this play is what allows it not to be considered a dribble. Id still allow another dribble after catching it off own backboard.

BigCat

Camron Rust Then 4-15-1 that says the ball touching your own board is not a dribble but doesn't remove the fact that it otherwise considered the same as touching the floo Why the distinction? I I wrote
think [/I]it is more historic than anything, perhaps hearkening back to the time when jump balls were held in the circle at each FT line (yes, they were once complete circles). A tapped jump ball hitting the backboard would have ended the jump ball restrictions. I can't think of any other reason it would matter aside from making it clear that it is still inbounds even thought it is mounted on an OOB surface.

I think it is likely the latter.

BillyMac

BigCat wrote
I'd still allow another dribble after catching it off own backboard.

Why would you allow it?

9-5: Illegal Dribble
A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

Was there a try for field goal?
Was there a touch by an opponent?
Was there a pass, or fumble, which was then touched by another player?

just another ref

Camron Rust wrote
First, you have a typo, you meant try of goal, not dribble in your quote.

Then you forgot this fundamental part of the travel rule:

If the player is not holding the ball when the feet are moved, the article you cite is not applicable nor are any of the other articles in the traveling section.

You're right about the typo. I corrected it, my apologies. As for the fundamental part of the rule, the case play cited is what it is, and apparently is an exception to that fundamental. You don't call this a travel?

BigCat

BillyMac wrote
Why would you allow it?

9-5: Illegal Dribble
A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

Was there a try for field goal?
Was there a touch by an opponent?
Was there a pass, or fumble, which was then touched by another player?

Because i view the case play expansively. If you just look at the rules, the player shouldnt be able to throw the ball off his backboard, run to another spot and catch it if it isnt a try. Again, when they say it is a player's "own equipment" i choose to interpret that as being similar to another player or a try.

BillyMac

BigCat wrote
Because i view the case play expansively.

The case play only states that, after ending a dribble, it's legal to throw the ball against one's own backboard, and it's also legal to catch it. It doesn't say that it's legal to start a new dribble. There is no exception listed for this maneuver in the Illegal Dribble rule.

If a coach politely says to me that this is an illegal dribble, I have no rulebook basis, nor do I have a specific casebook basis, to support my no call.

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