NCAAM 10-second violation application...

BoomerSooner

So in A the 10-second count shouldn't start until A touches the ball in the backcourt in NCAA, but in NFHS it should start once the ball touches the backcourt (team "control of the ball which is in his/her backcourt")?

BigCat

BoomerSooner wrote
So in A the 10-second count shouldn't start until A touches the ball in the backcourt in NCAA, but in NFHS it should start once the ball touches the backcourt (team "control of the ball which is in his/her backcourt")?

NCAA. When A touches it 10 count begins under your example. In NfHS the ten count would start when A2 retrieved the ball. That is when TC established in BC. There are other threads on this.

JRutledge

BoomerSooner wrote
I get that and am on board with that. But what about the 10-second count? When does that technically start? A1 inbounding after a made shot. The pass is deflected by B1 (shot clock starts), ball bounces across court for 2 seconds when it is finally picked up by A2? Does the 10-second count start when the pass was deflected by B1 or when it was picked up by A2?

Then you do not get it, because it was stated that the violation takes place when the shot clock read 20 (not including timeout or any other exception to the rule using the shot clock). When anyone touches the ball starts the shot clock.

This was kind of made clear earlier in this thread.

Peace

BigCat

JRutledge wrote
Then you do not get it, because it was stated that the violation takes place when the shot clock read 20 (not including timeout or any other exception to the rule using the shot clock). When anyone touches the ball starts the shot clock.

This was kind of made clear earlier in this thread.

Peace

He changed the play to a FC throwin by A, touched by B in A's FC and retrieved by A2 in A's BC. The shot clock starts when the ball is touched by B. The 10 count will not start until the ball is touched in the BC.

BoomerSooner

JRutledge wrote
Then you do not get it, because it was stated that the violation takes place when the shot clock read 20 (not including timeout or any other exception to the rule using the shot clock). When anyone touches the ball starts the shot clock.

This was kind of made clear earlier in this thread.

Peace

I get the violation occurs when the clock reads 20 if the shot clock and the 10-second count start simultaneously. When I stated "I get that and am on board with that", I was referring to the shot clock starting when the ball is legally touched by any player. That is pretty much a no exceptions point that I get.

My point is that the 10-second count and shot clock don't always start at the same time. The crux of my confusion is whether or not the 10-second count starts against team A when the ball is touched by any player (A or B) in A's backcourt. Is the simple touching of the ball by A or B in A's backcourt when A has team control sufficient to start the count. If A has established frontcourt status with the ball, does a pass deflected by B into the backcourt that is subsequently touched (not possessed) by B cause the 10-second count to start or does A have to touch it in the backcourt? If you say A has to touch it before starting a 10-second count, then how can it be that the 10-second count starts when B deflects a pass from A while inbounding following a made basket?

BigCat

BoomerSooner wrote
I get the violation occurs when the clock reads 20 if the shot clock and the 10-second count start simultaneously. When I stated "I get that and am on board with that", I was referring to the shot clock starting when the ball is legally touched by any player. That is pretty much a no exceptions point that I get.

My point is that the 10-second count and shot clock don't always start at the same time. The crux of my confusion is whether or not the 10-second count starts against team A when the ball is touched by any player (A or B) in A's backcourt. Is the simple touching of the ball by A or B in A's backcourt when A has team control sufficient to start the count. If A has established frontcourt status with the ball, does a pass deflected by B into the backcourt that is subsequently touched (not possessed) by B cause the 10-second count to start or does A have to touch it in the backcourt? If you say A has to touch it before starting a 10-second count, then how can it be that the 10-second count starts when B deflects a pass from A while inbounding following a made basket?

Your getting things complicated by changing the play back and forth. Also, forget team control for the moment.

1. A throw in from A's backcourt is tipped by B1 in A's BC. The shot clock and the -10 second count for A starts on Bs touch. A player legally touched the ball in A's BC. When the clock hits 20-violation. Even if seconds went by before A actually touched ball. Do you have that down?

SNIPERBBB

BoomerSooner wrote
So in A the 10-second count shouldn't start until A touches the ball in the backcourt in NCAA, but in NFHS it should start once the ball touches the backcourt (team "control of the ball which is in his/her backcourt")?

Fed is 10 second starts once the ball has BC status if there is still team control. Most guys do not start the count then, however.

JRutledge

BigCat wrote
He changed the play to a FC throwin by A, touched by B in A's FC and retrieved by A2 in A's BC. The shot clock starts when the ball is touched by B. The 10 count will not start until the ball is touched in the BC.

My response was to his comments to me. Nothing had changed at that time.

Peace

JRutledge

BoomerSooner wrote
My point is that the 10-second count and shot clock don't always start at the same time.

It does in college. That is all you need to know. 😉

BoomerSooner wrote
The crux of my confusion is whether or not the 10-second count starts against team A when the ball is touched by any player (A or B) in A's backcourt. Is the simple touching of the ball by A or B in A's backcourt when A has team control sufficient to start the count. If A has established frontcourt status with the ball, does a pass deflected by B into the backcourt that is subsequently touched (not possessed) by B cause the 10-second count to start or does A have to touch it in the backcourt? If you say A has to touch it before starting a 10-second count, then how can it be that the 10-second count starts when B deflects a pass from A while inbounding following a made basket?

Again the college rule is different. If the ball starts in the FC and goes to the BC, you have a different issue don't you think? You would not be using the shot clock and it reading 20 as the standard now would you?

We can either count with our arm like we always did or note the time on the clock when the violation would take place.

Peace

johnny d

JRutledge wrote
We can either count with our arm like we always did or note the time on the clock when the violation would take place.

Peace

Not sure I would advocate using a visible count on this type of play. The only listed exception to using the shot clock for backcourt counts is when there is no shot clock.

JRutledge

johnny d wrote
Not sure I would advocate using a visible count on this type of play. The only listed exception to using the shot clock for backcourt counts is when there is no shot clock.

I have talked with several individuals about this and there are some that would and others that wouldn't and others that would. Again, we are talking about a rare situation. Not many times where the shot clock starts then you have a gap and the ball in the backcourt for the 10 second count. Very rare and I have yet to see that situation where the ball would get stuck there for some time.

Peace

BoomerSooner

This is where I was trying to go with the conversation and appreciate everyone's input. I don't have any experience working NCAA games and thus my reading of the rule book is the basis of my knowledge. I don't have the benefit of having the same background that tells me how to interpret what is written that I was looking for from those of you do have that experience.

I agree that the shot clock and 10-second count will start simultaneously the vast majority of the time and that is where this thread started. I may have been better served by starting a new thread as I was wanting to learn when to start the count in situations other than the basic A is inbounding the ball after a made basket and how to handle it when they don't start simultaneously. In the end, I think what led me to complicate this was the additional language in 9.10 that covers when to start the 10-second count despite 2.9 indicating that the shot clock is utilized to administer the 10-second count. Thank you all again for the feedback.

David M

It is my understanding that the shot clock and game clock start on touch but the 10 second count starts with control. If so the shot clock and 10 second count could be very different.

bob jenkins

David M wrote
It is my understanding that the shot clock and game clock start on touch but the 10 second count starts with control. If so the shot clock and 10 second count could be very different.

Completely incorrect in NCAA (on 99% of throw-ins). Read the entire thread.

Raymond

I believe the question Boomer wants to ask is what do we do on a throw-in that's touched by the defense first in the frontcourt and then bounds into the back court. Would the 10-second count start when the ball hits the backboard or when Team A touches or possesses the ball in the backcourt.

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BoomerSooner

BadNewsRef wrote
I believe the question Boomer wants to ask is what do we do on a throw-in that's touched by the defense first in the frontcourt and then bounds into the back court. Would the 10-second count start when the ball hits the backboard or when Team A touches or possesses the ball in the backcourt.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk

You are getting to the heart of my questions. I'm trying to get a better understanding of what the criteria is for starting the 10-second count and how to administer the count if the shot clock and 10-second count don't both start at 30. Here is a bullet point recap of what I feel like I've learned thus far:

When inbounding the ball, contact with any player starts the shot clock and the 10-second count if said player is in the backcourt of the team in possession.

When the ball being inbounded is deflected into the backcourt by B who is in the front court, the shot clock starts and the 10-second count starts when the ball is touched by A in the backcourt.

When the ball is in play in the frontcourt and is deflected into the backcourt by B, the shot clock continues and the 10-second count starts when the ball is touched by A in the backcourt.

When the 10-second count and the shot clock start simultaneously, the 10-second count is administered via the shot clock and it is a violation if the ball has not been advanced before the shot clock shows 20 seconds.

If the 10-second count is started after the shot clock shows less than 30 seconds, the shot clock can still be utilized to administer 10-second count. Alternatively a visible count is acceptable (required if the shot clock is turned off or not visible).

Where I'm still not 100% certain is when the 10-second count starts if A has advanced the ball into the frontcourt and the ball is then then deflected by B into the backcourt and is touched by B (or an official if it makes any difference) in the backcourt.

bob jenkins

BoomerSooner wrote
You are getting to the heart of my questions. I'm trying to get a better understanding of what the criteria is for starting the 10-second count and how to administer the count if the shot clock and 10-second count don't both start at 30. Here is a bullet point recap of what I feel like I've learned thus far:

When inbounding the ball, contact with any player starts the shot clock and the 10-second count if said player is in the backcourt of the team in possession.

When the ball being inbounded is deflected into the backcourt by B who is in the front court, the shot clock starts and the 10-second count starts when the ball is touched by A in the backcourt.

When the ball is in play in the frontcourt and is deflected into the backcourt by B, the shot clock continues and the 10-second count starts when the ball is touched by A in the backcourt.

When the 10-second count and the shot clock start simultaneously, the 10-second count is administered via the shot clock and it is a violation if the ball has not been advanced before the shot clock shows 20 seconds.

If the 10-second count is started after the shot clock shows less than 30 seconds, the shot clock can still be utilized to administer 10-second count. Alternatively a visible count is acceptable (required if the shot clock is turned off or not visible).

Where I'm still not 100% certain is when the 10-second count starts if A has advanced the ball into the frontcourt and the ball is then then deflected by B into the backcourt and is touched by B (or an official if it makes any difference) in the backcourt.

The plays in red are the same -- start the 10-second count when A touches the ball.

I think a count is ONLY allowed under 30-seconds (true in NCAAW,; not sure in NCAAM)

Here's a relevant NCAAM case play (with a typo corrected) (the same ruling applies in NCAAW):

A.R. 206. Team A has the ball for a throw-in under its own basket with
15 seconds on the shot clock. The ball is passed inbounds (1) into Team A’s
frontcourt where it is touched by a Team B player and then continues into
Team A’s backcourt where it is touched by a Team A player with 12 seconds
remaining on the shot clock, or (2) into Team A’s backcourt where it is first
touched by any player in the backcourt.
RULING 1: The shot clock starts on the initial touch by the Team
B player, but the backcourt count does not start until the Team A
player touches the ball in the backcourt with 12 seconds on the shot
clock. There will be a 10 second backcourt violation with 2 seconds
remaining on the shot clock if the ball fails to gain frontcourt status
in Team A’s continuous control.
2: When any player touches the ball on a throw-in, the shot clock
shall start. When the first touch occurs in Team A’s backcourt,
the 10 second backcourt count shall also begin. There will be a
10 second backcourt violation with 5 seconds remaining on the
shot clock when the ball fails to gain frontcourt status in Team A’s
continuous control.

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