Backcourt Violation?

Jesse James

I ran this back last night, because I thought it was missed, but it was a great call--possession occurred in the backcourt, then touch with frontcourt status occurred, then was first to touch after ball regained backcourt status.

Welpe

Saw a grainier video of this earlier and though it was an excellent call. Seeing this one with the clearer slow motion view; I know the C nailed it.

bob jenkins

TH needs to repost his BC quiz.

chymechowder

OK so is it the same for high school?

I guess what's tripping me up is I'd thought NFHS you need all three things (ball and both feet) in the FC before you have FC status.

Thanks!

Raymond

chymechowder wrote
OK so is it the same for high school?

I guess what's tripping me up is I'd thought NFHS you need all three things (ball and both feet) in the FC before you have FC status.

Thanks!

Was he ever dribbling in the backcourt?

JRutledge

chymechowder wrote
OK so is it the same for high school?

I guess what's tripping me up is I'd thought NFHS you need all three things (ball and both feet) in the FC before you have FC status.

Thanks!

Yes, BC rules are exactly the same as far as I can tell all both genders in the NCAA an the NF Rules.

Three points or things applies to a dribble from the BC to the FC to gain FC status. The ball gains FC status by touching something in the FC like a player, floor or object that is considered in the FC.

The ball is touched by a player that is completely in the FC (it is not a plane) and that is why his dribble to the BC makes this a violation.

Peace

bob jenkins

chymechowder wrote
OK so is it the same for high school?

I guess what's tripping me up is I'd thought NFHS you need all three things (ball and both feet) in the FC before you have FC status.

Thanks!

Yes it's the same rule. Read the "3-points" rule very closely -- does it always apply? 😉

RefRich

Adam wrote
And I missed the initial save, which actually was what generated TC here.

How does the player saving the ball from going out of bounds create TC here? He shows no control over the ball, he is just the first to touch it.

so cal lurker

RefRich wrote
How does the player saving the ball from going out of bounds create TC here? He shows no control over the ball, he is just the first to touch it.

He grabs it and throws it -- how is that NOT control?

Adam

RefRich wrote
How does the player saving the ball from going out of bounds create TC here? He shows no control over the ball, he is just the first to touch it.

It looks to me like he grabs it and throws it back. He doesn't need to hold it for any specified period of time to establish team control. Had he batted the ball, I'd be discussing why I think #24 actually did establish PC (and thus TC) when he started his dribble with two feet in the FC.

so cal lurker wrote
He grabs it and throws it -- how is that NOT control?

Exactly.

zm1283

Put my vote down in the violation column.

Tom Eades is a great official. Got to watch him from the front row behind the table at a game a few years ago. He's one of the best.

bob jenkins

RefRich wrote
How does the player saving the ball from going out of bounds create TC here? He shows no control over the ball, he is just the first to touch it.

It's judgment, to be sure. And again we're on the "would you have granted TO?" question (or in NCAA, would you reset the shot clock?)

APG

RefRich wrote
How does the player saving the ball from going out of bounds create TC here? He shows no control over the ball, he is just the first to touch it.

Throw=TC/PC
Bat= no control

RefRich

so cal lurker wrote
He grabs it and throws it -- how is that NOT control?

I was watching on a smaller screen and it did not look like he caught it. watched it on my big screen. Thanks.

HokiePaul

Looks like he clearly caught the ball and threw it off of white to save it. But the second player in red who touches the ball seems to be the start of a dribble. Would the 3 points rule (two feet and the ball required for a dribbler to obtain front court status) not apply? If the touch is a dribble, then the ball retains backcourt status, no? Is college rule different than NFHS?

If the 3 points rule doesn't apply here than it was a great call by the official.

Raymond

HokiePaul wrote
Looks like he clearly caught the ball and threw it off of white to save it. But the second player in red who touches the ball seems to be the start of a dribble. Would the 3 points rule (two feet and the ball required for a dribbler to obtain front court status) not apply? If the touch is a dribble, then the ball retains backcourt status, no? Is college rule different than NFHS?

If the 3 points rule doesn't apply here than it was a great call by the official.

I ask again:

BadNewsRef wrote
Was he ever dribbling in the backcourt?

HokiePaul

BadNewsRef wrote
I ask again:

As an observer of basketball, I would say yes ... until the official blows the whistle, that was all he (#24) did was dribble the ball -- all 3 dribbles were in the backcourt until the official blew the whistle.

But what an observer sees isn't always how the rule is applied which is why I ask. I guess it is a question can you immediately become a dribbler on first touch of the ball. I'm not aware of a case/rule that speaks to this one way or another although there may be one.

Dad

HokiePaul wrote
As an observer of basketball, I would say yes ... until the official blows the whistle, that was all he (#24) did was dribble the ball -- all 3 dribbles were in the backcourt until the official blew the whistle.

But what an observer sees isn't always how the rule is applied which is why I ask. I guess it is a question can you immediately become a dribbler on first touch of the ball. I'm not aware of a case/rule that speaks to this one way or another although there may be one.

A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump ball, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions.

Yes you can be a dribbler on first touch of the ball but not always.

Welpe

The three points rule only applies on a dribbler going from back to front court. It does not apply in this situation.

In this case his first touch is in the front court (feet in the front court, ball in the air), his next is in the back court. I'm of the opinion that even if team control was not established with the red team player saving the ball (I believe it was), team control and player control was established when the first touch occurred as that was the start of his dribble.

Adam

HokiePaul wrote
As an observer of basketball, I would say yes ... until the official blows the whistle, that was all he (#24) did was dribble the ball -- all 3 dribbles were in the backcourt until the official blew the whistle.

But what an observer sees isn't always how the rule is applied which is why I ask. I guess it is a question can you immediately become a dribbler on first touch of the ball. I'm not aware of a case/rule that speaks to this one way or another although there may be one.

In my view, he dribbled from FC to BC. Since he started with FC status, 3 points does not apply.