Controversial end to Oregon Tournament Game

Camron Rust

Rich wrote
It's sad that anyone would try to defend 2-man as anything but the dinosaur that it is.

Who's to say that in a 3-man game that wouldn't have been the C opposite?

I agree that 3-person may have improved the odds of getting the call right in many games (and we do need 3-person on these). However, the location of the throw-in in the backcourt would have still had the T opposite....so it still would have been the T's call. The T would have had to ask for input on the call....something he could have done in 2-person too. If it is his call (it was and would have been with 3-person too) and he sells the call without asking for help, what could the C do?

Nevadaref

Camron Rust wrote
I agree that 3-person may have improved the odds of getting the call right in many games (and we do need 3-person on these). However, the location of the throw-in in the backcourt would have still had the T opposite....so it still would have been the T's call. The T would have had to ask for input on the call....something he could have done in 2-person too. If it is his call (it was and would have been with 3-person too) and he sells the call without asking for help, what could the C do?

That would depend upon which official is the R.

Raymond

This is a play that deserves a sell job.

If the shot is not going to count we should be hearing a whistle from the Trail BEFORE the ball is going through the hoop.

Nevadaref

BadNewsRef wrote
This is a play that deserves a sell job.

If the shot is not going to count we should be hearing a whistle from the Trail BEFORE the ball is going through the hoop.

A. Totally disagree with your first statement.
B. While your second statement is the proper procedure, it would be hard to blow the whistle at that point in this video since the horn hadn't sounded yet.

Raymond

Nevadaref wrote
A. Totally disagree with your first statement.
B. While your second statement is the proper procedure, it would be hard to blow the whistle at that point in this video since the horn hadn't sounded yet.

If a shot is not going to count, the ball should still be in the player's hand or just released, when the whistle sounds. The first whistle to disallow a shot shouldn't come after the ball has gone through the basket.

IUgrad92

Give a solid whistle at the time the horn goes, then mark the position of the ball on the whistle. I have a problem when partners don't give a whistle on a last second shot until the shot is over (missed or made), as it gives the appearance that an official could be making the decision (count it/don't count it) at the time the shot is made.

Anything close like this play, why would you NOT get with your partner or partners?? What are the negatives in doing so? To me, it only looks better when the crew comes together and at least gives the appearance that the call made was in agreement with the crew.

Bad Zebra

As I've posted in the past...this situation illustrates the need for a specific mechanic to end a period (at least for HS). Nowhere in the FED rule book, case book, or Officials' Manual does it indicate how a whistle should be used to end the period. Thus, everybody does it differently. There is no consistency among states, associations...sometimes no consistency within a crew. Debates occur every year as one of these tight games always seems to happen near the end of the season. Video replay is addressed for state tournaments...but not the use of the whistle. Always find that curious.

StripedYooper

IUgrad92 wrote
Give a solid whistle at the time the horn goes, then mark the position of the ball on the whistle. I have a problem when partners don't give a whistle on a last second shot until the shot is over (missed or made), as it gives the appearance that an official could be making the decision (count it/don't count it) at the time the shot is made.

Anything close like this play, why would you NOT get with your partner or partners?? What are the negatives in doing so? To me, it only looks better when the crew comes together and at least gives the appearance that the call made was in agreement with the crew.

The whistle should be blown at the end of the quarter. However the quarter doesn't end until a shot attempt ends. While the ball is in the air there shouldn't be a whistle. Blowing it at the sound of the horn is not correct. Rule 6.7.5 exception a.

Bad Zebra

StripedYooper wrote
The whistle should be blown at the end of the quarter...

Rule citation?

Rich

Bad Zebra wrote
Rule citation?

You need a rule to tell you when to blow a whistle?

Bad Zebra

Rich wrote
You need a rule to tell you when to blow a whistle?

No...just a justification, based on a written rule.

IUgrad92

StripedYooper wrote
The whistle should be blown at the end of the quarter. However the quarter doesn't end until a shot attempt ends. While the ball is in the air there shouldn't be a whistle. Blowing it at the sound of the horn is not correct. Rule 6.7.5 exception a.

I agree that the FED has not established an official way to end a quarter. However, (Rule 1.14) "...... the audible timer's signal shall indicate that time has expired." I am not saying the whistle automatically ends the quarter or ends a try for goal if the shot is in the air. Putting a whistle to the audible signal/horn gives that official, as well as everyone in the gym, a reference as to where the ball is at that point. How would you ever get in trouble by putting a whistle to the scoreboard's horn at the end of a quarter?

In the OP, the T's whistle is a full second after the horn. Had he put a whistle on the horn, it may have helped him establish the fact that the ball was out of the shooter's hand at the time the horn sounded.

StripedYooper

Agreed that if that shot was after the horn the whistle should have been blown a lot sooner. Also, it would be an ideal time to sell it (see other thread). The video didn't instill confidence that the shot was late. However, based upon the single clip I can't tell if it was after the horn or not.

#olderthanilook

StripedYooper wrote
Agreed that if that shot was after the horn the whistle should have been blown a lot sooner. Also, it would be an ideal time to sell it (see other thread). The video didn't instill confidence that the shot was late. However, based upon the single clip I can't tell if it was after the horn or not.

Agree. Agree...video(s) inconclusive.

Raymond

IUgrad92 wrote
I agree that the FED has not established an official way to end a quarter. However, (Rule 1.14) "...... the audible timer's signal shall indicate that time has expired." I am not saying the whistle automatically ends the quarter or ends a try for goal if the shot is in the air. Putting a whistle to the audible signal/horn gives that official, as well as everyone in the gym, a reference as to where the ball is at that point. How would you ever get in trouble by putting a whistle to the scoreboard's horn at the end of a quarter?

In the OP, the T's whistle is a full second after the horn. Had he put a whistle on the horn, it may have helped him establish the fact that the ball was out of the shooter's hand at the time the horn sounded.

I'm not putting whistle on the play until it is dead. That means immediately if the ball is still in the shooter's hand when time expires. A legal shot in mid-flight is not getting a whistle from me. I will hit my whistle the shot goes through the basket or when it is obvious that the shot is no good.

bob jenkins

BadNewsRef wrote
I'm not putting whistle on the play until it is dead. That means immediately if the ball is still in the shooter's hand when time expires. A legal shot in mid-flight is not getting a whistle from me. I will hit my whistle the shot goes through the basket or when it is obvious that the shot is no good.

Me, too.

And, fwiw, this specific procedure is in the NCAW CCA manual.

griblets

BadNewsRef wrote
I'm not putting whistle on the play until it is dead. That means immediately if the ball is still in the shooter's hand when time expires. A legal shot in mid-flight is not getting a whistle from me. I will hit my whistle the shot goes through the basket or when it is obvious that the shot is no good.

Agree 100%.

BillyMac

Our local guys have been instructed not to sound the whistle to end a period, unless something "weird" happens to end the period (foul right before horn, shot not released before horn sounds, horn doesn't sound with all zeros, etc.)

I don't believe that there is anything in the NFHS Rulebook that states that an official shall sound his whistle at the end of a period. I don't believe that there's anything in the IAABO Mechanics Manual that that states that an official shall sound his whistle at the end of a period. I don't have access to a NFHS Mechanics Manual, but I would like to know what it states. A little help please ...

SNIPERBBB

BillyMac wrote
Our local guys have been instructed not to sound the whistle to end a period, unless something "weird" happens to end the period (foul right before horn, shot not released before horn sounds, horn doesn't sound with all zeros, etc.)

I don't believe that there is anything in the NFHS Rulebook that states that an official shall sound his whistle at the end of a period. I don't believe that there's anything in the IAABO Mechanics Manual that that states that an official shall sound his whistle at the end of a period. I don't have access to a NFHS Mechanics Manual, but I would like to know what it states. A little help please ...

With the way they want us here to limit the number of unnecessary whistles, ie don't whistle subs in(unless timer is asleep), I don't see the need to whistle the end of the period either when its obvious that the whistle isnt needed.

Nevadaref

BadNewsRef wrote
I'm not putting whistle on the play until it is dead. That means immediately if the ball is still in the shooter's hand when time expires. A legal shot in mid-flight is not getting a whistle from me. I will hit my whistle the shot goes through the basket or when it is obvious that the shot is no good.

100% correct as there could be a rebounding foul while the ball is still live during the try. If IUgrad has already blown his whistle, people are going to ask what his whistle was for and how does that impact the subsequent foul call.