Violation or not? Player near sideline

BillyMac

letemplay wrote
I believe these situations are covered by 7.1.1 B, C, and D ('11-'12 Casebook)

7.1.1 SITUATION B: A1 blocks a pass near the end line. The ball falls to the
floor inbounds, but A1, who is off balance, steps off the court. A1 returns
inbounds, secures control of the ball and dribbles. RULING: Legal. A1 did not
leave the court voluntarily and did not have control of the ball when he/she did.
This situation is similar to one in which A1 makes a try from under the basket and
momentum carries A1 off the court. If the try is unsuccessful, A1 may come back
onto the court and regain control since A1 did not leave the court voluntarily and
did not have control of the ball when he/she did.

7.1.1 SITUATION C: A1 blocks a pass near the sideline and the ball goes into
A1’s front court. A1’s momentum carries him/her out of bounds. He/she immediately
returns inbounds, secures control of the ball, dribbles, shoots, and scores.
RULING: Legal. (4-35-1a; 7-1-2; 9-3)

7.1.1 SITUATION D: A1 jumps from inbounds to retrieve an errant pass near a
boundary line. A1 catches the ball while in the air and tosses it back to the court.
A1 lands out of bounds and (a) is the first to touch the ball after returning
inbounds; (b) returns inbounds and immediately dribbles the ball; or (c) picks up
the ball after returning to the court and then begins a dribble. RULING: Legal in
(a) and (b). Illegal in (c) as the controlled toss of the ball to the court by A1 constitutes
the start of a dribble, dribbling a second time after picking up the ball is
an illegal dribble violation. (4-15-5; 4-15-6d; 4-35; 9-5)

BillyMac

9-3-1-Note: The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary,
even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she is out of bounds.

jhc2010 wrote
He takes one dribble in bounds, sees that he is headed out of bounds, one-handed passes the ball up the court, comes back on bounds, and continues dribbling.

Adam

BillyMac wrote
9-3-1-Note: The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary,
even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she is out of bounds.

Sure, unless you deem it an interrupted dribble, during which there is no player control.

BillyMac

Adam wrote
Sure, unless you deem it an interrupted dribble, during which there is no player control.

4-15-5: An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after deflecting
off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the dribbler. There is no
player control during an interrupted dribble.

Doesn't sound like an interrupted dribble to me ("one hand passes the ball up the court").

jhc2010 wrote
He takes one dribble in bounds, sees that he is headed out of bounds, one-handed passes the ball up the court, comes back on bounds, and continues dribbling.

Adam

BillyMac wrote
4-15-5: An interrupted dribble occurs when the ball is loose after deflecting
off the dribbler or after it momentarily gets away from the dribbler. There is no
player control during an interrupted dribble.

Doesn't sound like an interrupted dribble to me ("one hand passes the ball up the court").

Where does it say the ID can't be intentional?

BillyMac

Adam wrote
Where does it say the ID can't be intentional?

Here?

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats
(intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once
or several times.

You can't have your cake, and eat it too.

Adam

BillyMac wrote
Here?

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats
(intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once
or several times.

You can't have your cake, and eat it too.

Yep, it's still a dribble, but it's interrupted.

BillyMac

Adam wrote
Yep, it's still a dribble, but it's interrupted.

It's one, or the other, it can't be both.

Or do we need a new definition for an uninterrupted dribble.

Adam

BillyMac wrote
It's one, or the other, it can't be both.

Or do we need a new definition for an uninterrupted dribble.

How exactly are they mutually exclusive?
A1 pushes the ball towards the floor as a regular dribble, then, he trips over his teammate before he can grab it again and he falls out of bounds. Are you calling him OOB?

More importantly, if the same action (as the OP) occurred in the middle of the court:

A1 trying to dribble around B1 pushes the ball ahead to the left of his defender and goes the other direction around B1. B2 sees the ball and starts to grab it. A1 requests a timeout?

Your call?

BillyMac

Adam wrote
A1 pushes the ball toward the floor as a regular dribble, then, he trips over his teammate before he can grab it again ...

Good point Adam. Interrupted dribble, because the ball "momentarily gets away from the dribbler", which certainly fits the definition of an interrupted dribble, even though this started out as a "intentional" dribble.

Still, to me, the original post seems like it's not an interrupted dribble.

Maybe we have to use that circular logic, that I really, really hate to use, asking the question, "Would you grant a timeout?", to help us decide whether, or not, its a dribble, or an interrupted dribble? Man, I even hate typing those words.

Adam

BillyMac wrote
Good point Adam. Interrupted dribble, because the ball "momentarily gets away from the dribbler", which certainly fits the definition of an interrupted dribble, even though this started out as a "intentional" dribble.

Still, to me, the original post seems like it's not an interrupted dribble.

Maybe we have to use that circular logic, that I really, really hate to use, asking the question, "Would you grant a timeout?", to help us decide whether, or not, its a dribble, or an interrupted dribble? Man, I even hate typing those words.

To me, it's similar to the whole (bogus) concept of the "controlled" tap. IMO, if the players isn't in control enough to grant a TO, he's not a dribbler. It may be a "controlled" interrupted dribble, but it's still interrupted. He voluntarily gave up control in order to avoid a violation; nothing wrong with that, IMO.

BktBallRef

As I said...

BktBallRef wrote
The player made a smart, legal play. There will always be officials who see this as something that should be penalized but by rule, it's nothing.

🙁