Things Officials Should Probably Not Be Saying In A Game ...

Rooster

BillyMac wrote
Rooster: Without a smilie, I can't tell if your serious, or trying to be funny, or sarcastic, or what? In any case, I hate your idea. This sounds like the rules clinic that JRutledge is trying to avoid, and something that, I think, JRutledge, and I, can agree upon 100%.

Plus, only one foot has to remain over the thirty-six inch "spot", there is actually quite a bit of movement allowed on a designated spot throwin. Get out your tape measure and give it a try.

JRutledge wrote
Eitehr way it goes, I am still saying, "Don't move." I think it makes little difference and nothing I have heard changes my mind or seems relevent to what a player thinks they can or cannot do.

Peace

Not trying to be funny or sarcastic. JRutledge said he hadn't heard anything that he would use instead of "Don't move." I was trying to come up with something that can be communicated quickly, that is factually correct, and lets a thrower know what he/she CAN do.

I don't see this as a rules clinic, but that's me.

I do know that "only one foot has to remain over the thirty-six inch "spot", there is actually quite a bit of movement allowed on a designated spot throw-in." See post #88 😀

Hate is a strong word, doncha think? 🙂

I thinks that's enough smilies for now... 🙂

BillyMac

Rooster wrote
Hate is a strong word, doncha think?

Yes I do. I apologize. I fixed it. Ask anybody on the Forum, I may post some pretty stupid things, but I always, and I mean always, try to be polite. Sorry. Please don't tell my Mom. She would be very disappointed in me, and in our Irish Catholic family, we're really good about making family members feel guilty, and she's better at it than anybody else in the family. She's what you would call a "Guilt Expert".

JeffM

I understand that saying "on the floor" is considered unacceptable so I stopped saying it.

However, I think it quickly conveys the essential information that the foul was before the shot.

So, I have said "spot" or "designated spot" instead. However, many players don't seem to understand what that means and I've been asked by players if it was a shooting foul.

I've also used "white ball" which seems to works better.

So, what is the best way to say it? I don't think that "before the shot" would be any more acceptable than "on the floor".

just another ref

Just wondering, with regard to instructions or lack thereof, the only time I say anything is when the throw-in is on the endline after a timeout. Is this the case for others?

"on the spot" while pointing at the spot

"you can move" accompanied by the sweeping gesture up and down the line

just another ref

JeffM wrote
I understand that saying "on the floor" is considered unacceptable so I stopped saying it.

However, I think it quickly conveys the essential information that the foul was before the shot.

So, I have said "spot" or "designated spot" instead. However, many players don't seem to understand what that means and I've been asked by players if it was a shooting foul.

I've also used "white ball" which seems to works better.

So, what is the best way to say it? I don't think that "before the shot" would be any more acceptable than "on the floor".

I personally have no problem with "on the floor." Everybody knows what it means, even if they don't know why it means what it means.

Adam

JeffM wrote
I understand that saying "on the floor" is considered unacceptable so I stopped saying it.

However, I think it quickly conveys the essential information that the foul was before the shot.

So, I have said "spot" or "designated spot" instead. However, many players don't seem to understand what that means and I've been asked by players if it was a shooting foul.

I've also used "white ball" which seems to works better.

So, what is the best way to say it? I don't think that "before the shot" would be any more acceptable than "on the floor".

Like I noted, the vast majority of the time, people get the intended meaning. However, simply saying "before the shot" when required gets the same point across without conveying the idea that if the shooter was on the floor when he was fouled he won't get free throws. And yes, I get that question a lot from coaches and players.

"Wasn't he on the floor?"

"Yes, but he had started his shot."

At best, this ends with a blank stare. At worst, it ends with a snarky comment from the referee. Somewhere in the middle of those, it ends with a technical foul.

APG

JeffM wrote
I understand that saying "on the floor" is considered unacceptable so I stopped saying it.

However, I think it quickly conveys the essential information that the foul was before the shot.

So, I have said "spot" or "designated spot" instead. However, many players don't seem to understand what that means and I've been asked by players if it was a shooting foul.

I've also used "white ball" which seems to works better.

So, what is the best way to say it? I don't think that "before the shot" would be any more acceptable than "on the floor".

A simple no shot (use the wave off if need be). Follow that with the team and where the throw-in will be if you feel like it.

just another ref wrote
I personally have no problem with "on the floor." Everybody knows what it means, even if they don't know why it means what it means.

Everyone knows what "over the back" means but we still don't want officials reporting fouls as "over the back" or even have it in their lexicon.

I can also say that in my experience, officials that use "on the floor" are generally poor at applying continuous motion, and I wouldn't doubt that using this phrase somehow influences their thinking in that a player on the floor isn't in the act.

JRutledge

BillyMac wrote
Now let's look at some facts, not opinions, but cold facts.

Fact #1: Despite that fact that we agree that, "Don't move", seems to be the quickest, and the best, statement that most efficiently communicates needed information to a player, and to a coach, without holding a rules clinic, it does not match the rules in the rulebook. There are there scenarios where a designated spot inbounder can legally move, within the designated area, a step, either side, outside the designated area, and as far back as can be accomplished in five seconds. These are facts, not opinions.

I do not think it is a requirement to use every term that the rulebook uses to communicate to people that do not know the rulebook language. Yes, we should you rulebook language as a standard, but there are times when it will not always convey the proper message without having an elongated discussion with a player or coach. And when they ask, "Can I move?" they certainly are not using rulebook language and I do not have the energy to try to make sure they understand what that means in the rulebook. Just like when a coach ask me on a block charge call, "Was he set", I might tell them "yes" and move on.

BillyMac wrote
Fact #2: At least two officials on this Forum, Camron Rust, and BillyMac, have dealt with coaches who took the directive, "Don't move", literally, and were charged with technical fouls for unsporting complaining about opponent players who "moved" on a spot throw in because he was sure they couldn't "move". These are facts, not opinions.

Neither of you live in my state. Neither of you are an assignor I work for. Neither of you are the Head Clinician. So it is nice that this is part of your experience, but it is certainly not my experience or any experience I have heard of until this very discussion. So obviously what I have been doing for years (and not what I say every time BTW) has never been a problem to the point where I had to give a T for what I said. And I have never had an argument over the issue as well. I will certainly be more aware, but I doubt it is going to change anything I will say or not say. I do sometimes say "spot" but it depends on what has happened in the game or who I am speaking to. Sometimes, "Don't move" solves the problem.

BillyMac wrote
Now that I have validated, and accepted, for sake of argument, that your opinion that, "Don't move", does not belong on a list of "Things Officials Should Probably Not Be Saying In A Game", can you, JRutledge, at least, give me the courtesy of answering the following two questions?

1) Do you dispute that Fact #1 (above) is, indeed, factual?

2) Do you dispute that Fact #2 (above) is, indeed, factual?

I never said a thrower could not move under the rules under and circumstances. But you keep acting like because you say they cannot move they are taking you so literally that they actually believe they cannot move literally. I have never seen a thrower think that their feet or body was in stone as a result of what we tell them. Obviously they move if they can move their arms, which is usually required in order to throw the ball onto the court. Stop being ridiculous to try to make some point no one is making in this situation. No one is taking us that literally in anything we tell them irregardless of what you are tying to state on this site. And in #2 it is a fact that many more officials do not wear a belt on the court, but you do. You have been ridiculed by some here for that very reason and you keep wearing a belt proudly. Does that fact change what you do or what you wear? Nope, so why would this be so compelling that two people that live in a completely different place and one of you never works 3 Person for varsity and does not work playoffs (your admission) be so compelling of an argument? And one person that said it was not a big deal actually lives in my state. That to me would be a much more compelling argument to keep doing what I have been doing if you ask me. 😉

BillyMac wrote
What if the list were named: "Things That Officials Say In A Game That Are Not Factually Consistent With The Rules Of The Game Of Basketball, But They Say Them Anyway Because It's The Most Efficient Way To Communicate With Players, and Coaches"?

If you want to come up with any list that is your right. But just like most lists people will disagree with the content or the order. Every watched the NFL Network and the Top 10 list shows. People disagree with the content all the time. This will be no different.

Peace

JRutledge

BillyMac wrote
But others have. Please don't tempt me to start a poll asking if any Forum member has ever observed, or worked with, or heard about, an official who directed players to go behind the division line.

Well good for them. I cannot recall the last time someone told them they had to and that is where the players magically go. The only time this becomes even a remote issue is when a coach wants to talk to a player and it has been only a couple of times I can remember an official not allowing that interaction because they were not at half court (on the side of where the T FTs were taking place). Do not confuse what a few people say on this site and equate it to most officials do on a regular basis in their careers or games they work.

Peace

JRutledge

just another ref wrote
If you tell them spot, that should tell them it is a spot throw-in and they cannot run the line. What they don't know after that is not our concern.

I agree this is splitting hairs.

Well isn't "spot" not a complete description of the rule? After all it is a "Designated Spot" not a "Spot" throw-in. And if you tell them spot, do they know what that means?

That is why it is spitting hairs because when you tell them "Don't move" they know they do not have the ability to "run." I consider most of this considerably shallow and silly. And I would not care either way if it works for someone to communicate to a player or coach.

Peace

JRutledge

APG wrote
Everyone knows what "over the back" means but we still don't want officials reporting fouls as "over the back" or even have it in their lexicon.

I am not so sure about that. People usually only complain about this when the "back" is involved and they often think their is something special about the back for a call to be made. I do not year someone complain when someone is out jumped while facing their opponent. And they often use that term when little or no contact took place.

APG wrote
I can also say that in my experience, officials that use "on the floor" are generally poor at applying continuous motion, and I wouldn't doubt that using this phrase somehow influences their thinking in that a player on the floor isn't in the act.

My experience as well. And most officials that use that term actually penalize the shooter for being on the floor or never getting off the floor during the foul when it is obvious they could not have been doing anything else but shooting the basketball. So that is one reason to not use the term IMO. And when you call a shooting foul while a player is on the floor or never is able to jump, the question you hear, "Ref wasn't he on the floor?" Those are much more compelling things to not say because the rule is completely misunderstood or applied improperly by those that use that term. I am not hearing anyone say an official misapplied a rule on a throw-in for what they might have said or did not say.

Peace

Camron Rust

JeffM wrote
I understand that saying "on the floor" is considered unacceptable so I stopped saying it.

However, I think it quickly conveys the essential information that the foul was before the shot.

So, I have said "spot" or "designated spot" instead. However, many players don't seem to understand what that means and I've been asked by players if it was a shooting foul.

I've also used "white ball" which seems to works better.

So, what is the best way to say it? I don't think that "before the shot" would be any more acceptable than "on the floor".

"before the shot" is just as easy to say as "on the floor" but is actually accurate in its meaning since it says that the foul occurred before the shot. A player could be shooting while still "on the floor" so a player could be getting 2 FTs having been on the floor. Why confuse thing when you don't need to?

"Spot" isn't used at the time of a foul but when administering the throwin on the backcourt endline mostly after a timeout.

just another ref

If one assumes that the use of "on the floor" means an official doesn't understand continuous motion, one could also assume that an official who says "don't move" doesn't understand the details of a spot throw-in.

One thing has nothing to do with the other.

Camron Rust

just another ref wrote
If one assumes that the use of "on the floor" means an official doesn't understand continuous motion, one could also assume that an official who says "don't move" doesn't understand the details of a spot throw-in.

One thing has nothing to do with the other.

Yup. So many inconsistencies. 🙄

BillyMac

JRutledge wrote
"Can I move?" ... "Was he set", I might tell them "yes" and move on.

"Yes" was not on my list of things not to say.

JRutledge wrote
And I have never had an argument over the issue as well.

Until this week.

JRutledge wrote
I do sometimes say "spot".

Sounds like a BillyMac disciple.

JRutledge wrote
I never said a thrower could not move under the rules under and circumstances.

I never said that you did. I was just looking for some common ground. Common ground is usually a good thing, almost ranking right up there with peace.

JRutledge wrote
And in #2 it is a fact that many more officials do not wear a belt on the court, but you do.

True, but I do not see that mentioned anywhere in #2. Maybe my monitor needs adjusting?

JRutledge wrote
You keep wearing a belt proudly.

I don't keep wearing it because I'm proud, I keep wearing it because I find it comfortable, because, according to IAABO guidelines, I can, and because belted pants are considered acceptable here in my little corner of Connecticut. I am certainly aware that a belt would be considered completely unacceptable in other parts of the country, maybe in all other parts of the country. What you are confusing for pride is actually me demonstrating what most of us already know regarding officiating, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." That's why I'm usually the one bringing up the belt, often making fun of myself.

JRutledge wrote
One of you never works 3 Person for varsity and does not work playoffs.

I've never worked a state tournament game. I'm not one of the best dozen, of so, officials in our board of 325 officials. I have worked conference, and league, playoffs, including, at least, one final. In regard to three person games, I can't help it if I live in The Land That Time Forgot.

JRutledge wrote
People will disagree with the content or the order.

Which is exactly why I only asked for additions to the list. Knowing how the Forum works, I purposely did not ask for deletions, nor did I ask for any priority order (although I do admit that the earring statement has a very local flavor to it). My request was quite successful, with three statements being added to my list.

BillyMac wrote
I really don't want to get into a debate regarding whether, or not, we should be saying things like this in a game for the purpose of preventative officiating. Anything to add to the list?

BillyMac

After a few suggestions from Forum members, here's where I currently stand at this point. A reminder, this is a list of Things Officials Should Probably Not Be Saying In A Game, things that officials often, or sometimes, say during a game that do not have any basis in the rules.

"On the floor" (for fouls against players who are not in the act of shooting).
"Don't move" (before a designated spot throwin).
"Hold your spots" (before the jump ball).
"You can't stand behind him" (before a the jump ball, to a player who is directly behind an opponent, who are both ten feet off the circle).
"Everybody get behind the division line" (during a free throw for a technical, or intentional, foul).
"Let it hit the rim" (before a free throw).
"Over the back" (on a rebounding foul, it's probably a pushing foul).
"Reaching in" (on a foul against a ball handler, it's probably a holding foul, an illegal use of hands foul, or a hand check foul).
"Coach, you have one timeout left" (when, by rule, we should only be notifying head coaches when their team has been granted its final allowable timeout).
"Sit down" (to a coach who has not been charged with a technical foul).
"You have to take out your earrings" (instead of, "You can't play with earrings").

Any more additions?

BillyMac

just another ref wrote
Just wondering, with regard to instructions or lack thereof, the only time I say anything is when the throw-in is on the endline after a timeout. Is this the case for others?

Stupid IAABO mechanics have us signaling the type of throwin, with the proper verbiage, and signal, before every throwin. Our local interpreter has told us to only do this on backcourt endline throwins, all backcourt endline throwins, not just backcourt endline throwins after time outs.

BillyMac

JeffM wrote
I understand that saying "on the floor" is considered unacceptable so I stopped saying it. So, what is the best way to say it?

"No shot", give the "no score" signal if the ball went in the basket, complete your at the site of the foul mechanics, including, "Possession White", and pointing to the designated spot, and then go and report the foul to the table. Easy peasey lemon squeezy.

BillyMac

just another ref wrote
Even if they don't know why it means what it means.

Cool sounding statement.

BillyMac

Camron Rust wrote
Why confuse things when you don't need to ...

... or don't have to? Thus, the purpose of my list.

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