Glove: Legal or Illegal?

Robmoz

IRISHMAFIA wrote
Okay, I was addressing the plastic ties and only the plastic ties. But I still would not make a wholesale decision without actually holding the glove.

Even then, on what basis would I have in disallowing the glove? And I'm sure you are going to be informed this glove has been allowed in hundreds of games. 😉

Considering the whipping action or just the distance of the protrusion, should players be required to trim the long extra pieces of leather lacing from the glove?

Let's talk about comparable situations. Should we ban sliding feet first on tags plays? After all the metal or poly spikes can be quite sharp.

All that said, yeah, if I thought the glove was a danger, I would probably have a discussion with the coach to see if s/he can adjust the glove to eliminate any safety issue there may be.

May be an old post, but yesterday...I had a player use a glove with the leather laces extending about 12 inches on all fingers like tentacles. Other than looking ridiculous I was wondering IF it posed a safety risk that needed my attention or not? Any thoughts?:confused:

Manny A

Robmoz wrote
May be an old post, but yesterday...I had a player use a glove with the leather laces extending about 12 inches on all fingers like tentacles. Other than looking ridiculous I was wondering IF it posed a safety risk that needed my attention or not? Any thoughts?:confused:

The ONLY issue I've ever heard when it comes to long leather laces is that they may pose a distraction when the pitcher has them. And that was in a LL Baseball game in my son's old local league, and it was done by a coach who looked for any excuse to get under the opposing team's skin.

As for it being a safety issue, I don't see how that's really a problem.

I suppose one could argue that 12-inch-long laces could give the defense an advantage when it came to tagging a runner. If on a swipe tag the fielder contacted the runner only with the laces while the ball was in the glove, would that be a legal tag? We do say a tag of a runner's ponytail constitutes a legal tag; how about when it comes to the glove? Hmmmmm...

CecilOne

Manny A wrote
I suppose one could argue that 12-inch-long laces could give the defense an advantage when it came to tagging a runner. If on a swipe tag the fielder contacted the runner only with the laces while the ball was in the glove, would that be a legal tag? ..

Are the laces part of the glove or merely an attachment?

Manny A

CecilOne wrote
Are the laces part of the glove or merely an attachment?

If they're being used to hold the glove together, they're part of it. I view attachments as items that serve no useful purpose, such as a lucky rabbit's foot or a dreamcatcher.

That said, are there any restrictions to attachments on gloves in the rules? I know that in LL, there is a restriction to attachments of "foreign material" to the pitcher's glove, where "foreign material" entails any item not attached by the manufacturer. No such restriction exists for other fielders.

I don't recall ever seeing anything similar in ASA, FED, or NCAA. The latter has something close under rule 3.7.2, where it says, "The use of any treatment or device that fundamentally changes the specifications of gloves is prohibited and renders the equipment altered and unsuitable for play." I wouldn't consider extra-long laces as a "device" that changes the glove's specs.

Jake26

Manny A wrote
I suppose one could argue that 12-inch-long laces could give the defense an advantage when it came to tagging a runner. If on a swipe tag the fielder contacted the runner only with the laces while the ball was in the glove, would that be a legal tag? We do say a tag of a runner's ponytail constitutes a legal tag; how about when it comes to the glove? Hmmmmm...

If the extra-long laces are considered part of the glove for purposes of a tag, have we not violated the rules regarding the size of the glove?

Umpteenth

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. wrote
Picture the free end of the zip tie pushed through the female end thereby completing the tie. The free end is then cut off about 1/8th of an inch past the female end of the zip tie. I think that everybody knows that as designed the zip tie is quite flexible, when it is cut so close the the locking portion of the zip tie, the edges of the tie are quite sharp.

Yesterday after MTD, Jr.'s and my last game in an ASA girls' fastpitch tournament I noticed that one of the player's gloves, rather than using leather laces to keep the glove's fingers to together, she used three zip ties instead. The female ends of the zip ties were on the outside of the glove's fingers and the male end of the zip tie was cut off about 1/8 of an inch past the female part of the zip tie.

My question is: Is this glove legal? And is it safe? The outside of the glove's fingers is the side of the glove that tags the runner about 99.999,999% of the time and if it came in contact with a runner's arm or face in a sweeping motion the sharp edges of the plastic could scratch or cut the runner.

What say you everybody?

MTD, Sr.

I've worked with and around these plastic tie-wraps for 20 years, and I can tell you that a 1/8-inch tail is very sharp and can be quite dangerous. I have seen arm wounds that require stitches. In my field, these injuries are caused when someone reaches into an equipment cabinet and is cut by the extended tail. I shudder to think what might happen from a swipe tag against bare skin.

The glove may be legal, but if I were to see it, I would ask for the tie-wraps to be flush cut before I would allow it to be used.

RadioBlue

Sometimes, you gotta umpire. We're out there to protect the integrity of the game and the safety of the participants. I would have no problem with an umpire who deems this glove dangerous and bans it from the game. In fact, I just might be one of those umpires. If I can avoid being dragged into court, I will. If the team protests and the UIC gets involved, so be it. Then it's on him/her and not me.

Manny A

Jake26 wrote
If the extra-long laces are considered part of the glove for purposes of a tag, have we not violated the rules regarding the size of the glove?

I hate to answer a question with a question, but if that were to be the case, wouldn't the rules specify a maximum length for the laces?

IMO, glove sizes are solely for the purpose of providing a specification that limits the catching ability of the wearer on the field. If there was also a concern to limit the tagging ability, then the catcher's glove/mitt would also be limited.

That said, good luck actually seeing a fielder tag a runner with the glove's laces. 😉

jTheUmp

FED baseball (and I'm sure softball also, although I don't have the rulebook handy) has a rule to the effect of "any equipment the umpire judges as unreasonably dangerous is illegal".

I'm guessing ASA has a similar provision, but I'm not an ASA guy.

If the cable ties on the glove are sharp enough to potentially injure a player, that glove isn't going to be used in my game.

IRISHMAFIA

Speaking ASA

Note, that my comments were base on general knowledge and I did state that if I thought they were dangerous, the glove probably would be removed from the game.

BUT ONLY ON THE POINT THAT IT WAS DANGEROUS TO ANOTHER PLAYER. Turn the zip tie around to where the connection was on the inside of the glove, and I have nothing.

For those who want to disallow the glove because it is being held together with plastic instead of leather, you have nothing to back it up other than made up rules. That isn't your job.

Those of you who are looking for reasons to declare a safety issue (i.e., long leather strands), you are picking nits and you probably agreed that Ralphie shouldn't get a bb gun for Christmas. Again, your job is to umpire the game, not be the police.

Do I think it is smart to have long strands of leather whipping around? No, but at what length do you draw the line? You know, leather isn't always soft and snipped edges of tanned hide can be sharp, especially some of cheap gloves on the market today. Maybe we need to start measuring the lace ends and checking them for rigid edges to make sure no one will ever be injured on a tag. 🙄 And yes, I am being facetious, but it scares me how many umpires think it is THEIR game on THEIR field and it will be played by THEIR rules.

EsqUmp

IRISHMAFIA wrote
Speaking ASA

Note, that my comments were base on general knowledge and I did state that if I thought they were dangerous, the glove probably would be removed from the game.

BUT ONLY ON THE POINT THAT IT WAS DANGEROUS TO ANOTHER PLAYER. Turn the zip tie around to where the connection was on the inside of the glove, and I have nothing.

For those who want to disallow the glove because it is being held together with plastic instead of leather, you have nothing to back it up other than made up rules. That isn't your job.

Those of you who are looking for reasons to declare a safety issue (i.e., long leather strands), you are picking nits and you probably agreed that Ralphie shouldn't get a bb gun for Christmas. Again, your job is to umpire the game, not be the police.

Do I think it is smart to have long strands of leather whipping around? No, but at what length do you draw the line? You know, leather isn't always soft and snipped edges of tanned hide can be sharp, especially some of cheap gloves on the market today. Maybe we need to start measuring the lace ends and checking them for rigid edges to make sure no one will ever be injured on a tag. 🙄 And yes, I am being facetious, but it scares me how many umpires think it is THEIR game on THEIR field and it will be played by THEIR rules.

So it is about being DANGEROUS, not about LIABILITY? I see. Makes sense now. 🙄

xtremeump

Dangerous ???? Liability scares me

IRISHMAFIA

EsqUmp wrote
So it is about being DANGEROUS, not about LIABILITY? I see. Makes sense now. :rolleyes:

When you can find any situation where there is a possibility of injure, no matter how remote, and a perceived liability cannot be created by an ambulance chaser, you let me know.

I will eagerly await your response and that of your shadow.

xtremeump

Irish, I have missed you but some of us still have a full schedule of being an on the field Umpire. The game of Softball today is dangerous we as Umpires need to be active but not nit pick.

IRISHMAFIA

xtremeump wrote
Irish, I have missed you but some of us still have a full schedule of being an on the field Umpire. The game of Softball today is dangerous we as Umpires need to be active but not not pick.

Walking out your front door is dangerous.

And I don't nit pick and if you know me and how I work, you would know that.

EsqUmp

The issue is creating/allowing an additional, unnecessary danger.

Why can't they just fix the glove properly?

If they wanted to use nails or screws to hold the glove together, would that be acceptable?

Manny A

EsqUmp wrote
The issue is creating/allowing an additional, unnecessary danger.

Why can't they just fix the glove properly?

If they wanted to use nails or screws to hold the glove together, would that be acceptable?

Years ago, when I first started umpiring in my son's local Little League, I found a catcher's mitt that was being held together by machine screws. When I asked the kid why, he said that's how is dad thought he could fix the mitt. I told him he needed to have his dad figure out another way, and wouldn't allow the mitt in the game.

This was the same dad who sat beyond the outfield fence in the bed of his pickup truck with a Dollar Store folding chair (the ones with aluminum frames and the nylon straps), drinking beer out of a cooler. We all felt sorry for his kid.

argodad

Manny A wrote
This was the same dad who sat beyond the outfield fence in the bed of his pickup truck with a Dollar Store folding chair (the ones with aluminum frames and the nylon straps), drinking beer out of a cooler.

You just described half the fans here. 😎

nopachunts

Manny A wrote
This was the same dad who sat beyond the outfield fence in the bed of his pickup truck with a Dollar Store folding chair (the ones with aluminum frames and the nylon straps).

At one of our local HS fields, the parking lot is very close to the 1B line. A group of students (mostly boys) put a couch in the back of a pickup and would park the pickup parallel to the base line and set on the couch to watch the game. Their antics were almost as fun to watch as the game itself.