Players on the floor after 2Q, different in 3Q

JRutledge

icallfouls wrote
I should have said I agree, but, The point was somebody made an issue out of it....the coach. Perhaps have the non-administering official go over and confirm starters for 3rd qtr as a bit of preventative officiating?

If that is what you want to do, be my guest. I am just saying it is such a minor issue IMO unless someone wants to make a bigger deal out of it. Otherwise, we go with the players that come out on the floor. The only thing I would monitor is if some player tried to go to the table after the warning horn, then I might worry about that part, but otherwise it is not something I am going to make sure is followed to the letter. I doubt coaches even care who the 5 come out on the floor in the second half that closely. And if they did worry about that, they might bring it to our attention more.

Peace

icallfouls

Would anyone think to say the onus is on the coach to provide information that confirms his assertion? Since was the home coach complaining, is this something they set up?

JRutledge

icallfouls wrote
Would anyone think to say the onus is on the coach to provide information that confirms his assertion? Since was the home coach complaining, is this something they set up?

That is why there is too much thinking on this issue. Play with who comes out there and let us move on. If I have to actually question the integrity of the coach on an issue like this every time, we have bigger problems.

Peace

icallfouls

JRutledge wrote
If that is what you want to do, be my guest. I am just saying it is such a minor issue IMO unless someone wants to make a bigger deal out of it. Otherwise, we go with the players that come out on the floor. The only thing I would monitor is if some player tried to go to the table after the warning horn, then I might worry about that part, but otherwise it is not something I am going to make sure is followed to the letter. I doubt coaches even care who the 5 come out on the floor in the second half that closely. And if they did worry about that, they might bring it to our attention more.

Peace

I agree with you, but again, someone did make an issue of it and this particular coach DID care who was starting the 3rd qtr.

It sounds like this will happen more frequently at this coach's games.

Had this very situation happen in a college game about 5 years ago. Yes it is cheap, yes coach just happened to learn a rule he could try to exploit.

We proceeded according to rule.

JRutledge

icallfouls wrote
I agree with you, but again, someone did make an issue of it and this particular coach DID care who was starting the 3rd qtr.

It sounds like this will happen more frequently at this coach's games.

Had this very situation happen in a college game about 5 years ago. Yes it is cheap, yes coach just happened to learn a rule he could try to exploit.

We proceeded according to rule.

And you know what my answer would be to that coach? "OK." Then go across the court and put the ball in play. 😉

Peace

MD Longhorn

icallfouls wrote
We proceeded according to rule.

What do you mean by this. What exactly did you do next?

bob jenkins

The Rooster wrote
The varsity officials after my game had to deal with the home head coach who complained that the players at the end of the second quarter were different than the players who started the third quarter. According to HC, they did not check in before the 15 second warning buzzer starting the third quarter. He confirmed with the official scorer that no one had checked prior to that buzzer.

My question, How can we enforce 3-3-1a if no one keeps track of the players leaving after the second quarter? Are we expected to keep track?

That's the scorer's job. If the scorer doesn't know, we have to play with who is out there. If the scorer does know, and the coach raises it, then play with who WAS out there.

JetMetFan

3.3.1 SITUATION D:

Intermission has concluded and play is about to resume in the third quarter when the scorer notifies the officials that no Team A substitutes reported prior to the warning horn.

RULING: The third quarter begins with the same five Team A players that concluded the second quarter. (3-3-1a Note)

"Coach, if you can remember the five players on the floor for the other team at the end of the first half more power to you because I sure don't..."

(whistle...ball in play)

Adam

JetMetFan wrote
"Coach, if you can remember the five players on the floor for the other team at the end of the first half more power to you because I sure don't..."

(whistle...ball in play)

OP states the scorebook backed up the coach. Good enough for me.

JetMetFan

Adam wrote
OP states the scorebook backed up the coach. Good enough for me.

Oh, I get that part and I don't doubt that no one checked in to the scorer. I'll be more than happy to go along with them if either the HC or the scorer can remember who was out there at the end of the first half.

just another ref

Scorebook verified no one checked in. Did they verify which players were on the court at the end of the half?

JugglingReferee

bob jenkins wrote
That's the scorer's job. If the scorer doesn't know, we have to play with who is out there. If the scorer does know, and the coach raises it, then play with who WAS out there.

Easiest solution. But in my years, not a single coach has made an issue of it.

BayStateRef

There is one scorer in my area who writes in the book the numbers of every player on the court when each quarter ends. If different players start a quarter without reporting, she has the timer sound the horn and has no trouble telling the coach (visiting coach, of course) exactly who was in the game when the quarter ended.

The evidence was clear...and left me no choice but to enforce the rule. At the next quarter, the players made a special "show" of checking in.

bob jenkins

I think it was a POE a couple of years ago, and all scorers should (but not all do, I know) know who is in the game at any given time. (And, if it's too much for the scorer than someone else at the table can track it.)

Heck, many gyms have the current players on the scoreboard.

Raymond

bob jenkins wrote
...
Heck, many gyms have the current players on the scoreboard.

Damn, you must work in some rich school districts. 😎

Rich

BayStateRef wrote
There is one scorer in my area who writes in the book the numbers of every player on the court when each courtier ends. If different players start a quarter without reporting, she has the timer sound the horn and has no trouble telling the coach (visiting coach, of course) exactly who was in the game when the quarter ended.

Is this because the home coach is aware of the rule and how much a stickler the scorekeeper is or because the scorekeeper's a homer?

MD Longhorn

Is it just me.... or is this a rather stupid rule.

Rooster

ref3808 wrote
So how did our colleagues handle it?

They blew the whistle and the teams played on, much to the consternation of the HC.

just another ref wrote
Scorebook verified no one checked in. Did they verify which players were on the court at the end of the half?

The scorer involved said that it would be too difficult to keep track of this, since there's no place to put it in the scorebook. According to him, he's got to add up points for the quarter and verify other "stuff" and therefore has no time to do it.

icallfouls wrote
Would anyone think to say the onus is on the coach to provide information that confirms his assertion? Since was the home coach complaining, is this something they set up?

This was my argument in our meeting. "What if he was up to some shenanigans." If this comes up in my game I think my response would be that he would have to prove it for me. I don't want him to be able to pick the lineup for the other coach. The best solution some of us came with was to ask the coach "Are these the same players that ended the quarter?" thus putting it on him.

Adam

For me, this is all on the scorer. If the scorer can't tell me who finished the last quarter, I'm not trying to remember. And that will be the end of my detective work.

BayStateRef

Rich wrote
Is this because the home coach is aware of the rule and how much a stickler the scorekeeper is or because the scorekeeper's a homer?

Probably the first. But I never asked. I had her do it in three games...and she was consistent. One visiting coach complained bitterly, but I told her that I had no choice but to enforce the rule, since the scorer certainly had it all documented. In that game, this coach was burned twice: at the start of the second quarter and at the start of the second half. Shame on her for not learning after the first incident. At the start of the fourth quarter, I watched the girls make a big show of checking in properly.